Today's daily is the next installment of Doc Griffin's series on custom club fitting. In this video, Doc covers some common misconceptions on how lie angle is measured before he gets into the weighty subject of determining the proper MOI--Moment of Inertia--for each client.
In my opinion, getting the MOI of the whole club correct is right there at the top of the list of things that are essential in a custom club fitting. The MOI of the club is important to matching the swing feel of all the clubs in the bag. Current club fitting theory states that if all clubs in a set are made to have the same, identical MOI, the golfer will be more consistent because each club will require the same effort to swing.
However, not all club fitters know how to find the correct MOI for each client. Instead they use a method for matching clubs in swing feel that is called "swing weight matching". Swing weight is an expression of the ratio of the weight in the grip end of the club to the weight in the rest of the club on down to the clubhead. Swing weight matched golf clubs are not matched for MOI, but may come relatively close to MOI matching. MOI matching of clubs is a swing matching system currently offered only by more advanced custom club makers like Doc and our other PPGS certified club fitters.
Keep it vertical!
The Surge
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Comments
Yes on the Haney. Looks like
Yes on the Haney. Looks like the lady has the best swing and looks the best too!
;) The flat rotary swing he teaches makes my back hurt though.
Steve & T, best method I use
Steve & T, best method I use is cleaning the bottoms of cups with a scotch pad, really
makes you work hard in the hinge area, LOL.
As a matter of fact, I do
As a matter of fact, I do have thoughts on Forged vs. Cavity. ÃÂ See next week's video. ÃÂ I do wonder though why you would need to be adjusting lie angle back and forth?
Charlie,
Charlie,
When did the USGA get into certifying fitters? This is the first that I've heard of it.
ÃÂ Have you seen this study
ÃÂ Have you seen this study?
http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/...
I guess it turns out that ignorance really is bliss. ;-)
Probably a survival mechanism. It would be a very bad feeling to be dumber than heck and know it.
Cool Robert. I know they'll
Cool Robert. I know they'll be some who find it facsinating and others who don't. it is actually a very interesting subject to me and as you say is the reason fot many of us that we have "favorite clubs" and ones we can never hit where we aim. Of course there are other factors including swing path and angles we add on our own that can cause errany shots, but lie and loft moght be he easiest to fix and the least expensive while being the most impportant according to some. Being that many of the Surge Nation cannot afford to get fitted clubs (yet...... I'm an optimist)ÃÂ they in most cases could and should afford checking their lies and lofts. The same machine measures and can adjust both. I'll shoot you a text now on two places that might do a decent job on bothe for us.
BTW, I have one of the coolest books ever writen by onr of the foremost fitter designers alive.
'Golf Club Fitting and Performance'
http://ralphmaltby.com/349
More info than anyone could ever need but writen in very understandable language.
It's a golf club encyclopedia more or less.
Love it. 750 pages with tons of illustrations and articals on everything about golf clubs.
Just a a neat book. not cheap but worth ever dime.
Actually, to MOI the set you
Actually, to MOI the set you are pretty close. ÃÂ The sw difference would be 1/2 sw instead of 1 full sw. ÃÂ You made the shaft tips softer by adding weight which could cause toe droop which could cause hits toward the toe. ÃÂ This has happened but is extreme. ÃÂ Have the lie angles checked. ÃÂ You can do it yourself by putting tape on the bottom and hitting off a piece of plastic or thin wood. ÃÂ To get a better idea, try addressing the ball well towards the hosel and see if this makes any difference. ÃÂ Another thing that can cause toe hits other than having the ball addressed more towards the toe is setting up with a bit of an arm reach. ÃÂ When you swing, the arms will come back in towards the body and make ÃÂ you hit on the toe.
ÃÂ Yeah, you can probably
ÃÂ Yeah, you can probably buy a better chance to utilize what talent you have but a really talented guy with a great swing and an awful set of clubs is probably still going to beat the crap out of a guy with no talent and a bad swing with the best set of clubs money can buy.
Fact is that some people just aren't going to be very good at golf no matter what they do. At some point after the equipment is perfect, the lessons are taken, the practice time is put in, and the physical fitness is as good as we can achieve, we are still left with what talent we have and what it will allow.
Thank you to Don, Doc & the
Thank you to Don, Doc & the other contributors to the Daily Tip Videos. ÃÂ I have been working on the "PPGS" for about a year now and I'm starting to develop confidence that I can actually "Play Golf" now... All of that Old Rotational Swing Instruction that I tried to do over the years had me so messed up I was ready to just HANG IT UP & GO FISHING! ÃÂ This year's goal is continue working on the Swing Improvements & start working on the Short Game with the Kenny Knox videos - Great Addition to the available Training Library. ÃÂ Putting Secrets with E. Harvey Ward put some SMOKE into my Putter last year too!
I have a question on Doc Griffin's "Shaft Length" Video from his Club Fitting Series on the Daily Videos. ÃÂ The Video on "Shaft Length" identified that Club Length is "From the Left Wrist to the Floor" - I'm "right at" 32 inches, does that translate to a "Standard Club Shaft Length"?
Doc
Doc
Great job, as usual. This is all wonderful information to have.ÃÂ The series is really helping me when I am working at the golf shop.ÃÂ I tell people all the time to get a real fitting before they just buy sticks off the rack.ÃÂ It has probably cost me a couple of sales, but it is worth it when people come back in and thank me for helping them.
Can you guys turn the lights down so I can't see you so well?ÃÂ I can only take so much.
Dick
Great video.Not to beat this
Great video.
Not to beat this with a dead horse but it looks like you and Dj have your shoe laces covered with your knees if so would that be a good check point in your opinion? Another words if you look down at address can you see your shoe laces are they covered by your knees ?
Add
With shorts on we would have about the same knee flex. I tend to check my knee flex before I PLHR and go to wide knees.
ÃÂ Just describing my
ÃÂ Just describing my limitations and an excuse for why Ron at Lil Mole could beat me with an old club he dredged out of a pond that he has never hit before.;-)
He's the only person I've ever seen that can take anybody's club of any length, weight, grip, flex, kick point, or anything else and hit bullets right down the middle every time with it from the very first swing.
No clue how he can do that.
(But can't putt a lick).
Didn't see the Haney Project. Must have missed it.
Two birds with one stone is
Two birds with one stone is always good. ;-)
Doc,
Doc,
Thanks for the reply and looking forward to next weeks video. ÃÂ
As for the back and forth, my set was a basic set that was cast and I did notice that the toe end of the club was getting more rubbing. ÃÂ A friendÃÂ recommendedÃÂ bending toe up and stated if I did not like it, you could go back to the original. ÃÂ However, adjusting Cast heads can cause cracking,,, i.e. cold working a soda can. ÃÂ So he only buys Forged heads.
CJ
I wouldn't say that there are
I wouldn't say that there are flaws in the theory.
Just a need, if used, to go beyond Green Reading 101 into more advanced classes to use all of the possible variables and nuances.
Getting into all of the variables wouldn't be good for me and my "see it and do it approach" but might well be something good for you since you look at actions from a mathematical approach.
It's sort of like the carry to roll ratio on chips or the backstroke to roll out on putts. For either to work you also have to re-calculate according to green speed and slope. Then it can get extremely complicated. A 1* slope on a fast green down grain and a 2* slope on a slow green against the grain or if there are two slopes, one up and the other down and one has one grain and the other has another...and on and on. So many variables I would get a headache and need a calculator.
They'll continue to replay it
They'll continue to replay it. Just check the GC tv times at their web site.
Steve
Steve
(Add: Hey Roger. Where are ya'll getting that there should be 30* knee flex?
Nobody I have ever seen has more than 15 to 18 degrees off of a vertical line. 30 degrees would almost be squatting down.)
I agree and misunderstood something some were.Anyway I tried more knee flex not quite that much and did not seem to help standing taller less spine tilt gets the ankles correct and I have better balance.
Now I have to resist trying to go to parallel at the top of the BUS with the higher hands and taller posture it gets the hands closer to my body and helps with that but I still will go to far trying to go at 90%. And get the left shoulder to go down and under the chin instead of around flat under the chin witch IMO is why I drag the club inside to quickly.
Adams does some weird things
Adams does some weird things with lie angles. They range from 3/4* to 1*, to .5* to .25*. They also do some strange things with length. The best thing to do is go to their web site and get the specs and then have your clubs compared to it.
Dave,
Dave,
I have reconsidered my over the top response to you and found it to be unpleasant even to me. You have my apology for too quick of a shoot from the hip response, which seems to have shot myself in the foot. Nuff said.
The problem is that there
The problem is that there really isn't a "Standard Club Shaft Length" so much. Different OEM manufacturers have their own specs, but individual sets may vary from those. Remember that off-the-rack clubs are factory assembled, so you have a bunch of people on an assembly line whose entire training consists of which bin to grab a shaft from and which bin to grab a head from. Among the shafts in the "Regular" flex bin, there could be a variation from the stiff end of Senior flex to the soft end of Stiff flex. No attempt is made to even align the spines, much less the more accurate method of floing the shaft to minimize off-plane vibration. And that's just a small part of what could be non-optimal in an off-the-rack set. Even sets that claim to be swing weight matched may vary significantly from club to club.ÃÂ
ÃÂ Doc
ÃÂ Doc
Just pick it up at the start of the 2nd verse and jump right in.
Dick
I can see all of my shin,
I can see all of my shin, ankle and the entire top of both feet because my knees are wide enough to be out of the way and not in my line of sight to my feet.
However if they were in my line of sight I would see all of my shoe laces except at the top where they are tied on my right foot. On the left I could still see the entire foot because I am pre-loaded heavy right.
P.S. That is on relatively level ground.
P.S. again: IMO how much of your feet one may or may not see at address is not ever going to be a very good universal way to determine posture. There are way too many variations in body type and length of different parts of the body for it to translate from one person to another. Especially the length of the upper body to length of legs ratio along with the length of the neck.
There is also a fairly wide range of spine tilt among players. Even a couple of degrees of extra spine tilt would make a huge difference in the line of sight to the foot.
Once a particular player has found the perfect position for themselves it could be used but would never transfer universally among players. For me it's all about the feel of a good athletically balanced position for the shot I'm trying to hit.
Mike you obviously have the
Mike you obviously have the talent,hence in your case the lie angle issue becomes even important for you to fix for consistent feed back.
Again., there is no standard
Again., there is no standard from one company to the next and we can choose too.
Click this link:http:/
Click this link:
http://swingsurgeon.com/Instru...
And then click the area where you live and work down to see if there are any fitters in your area.ÃÂ
If not, you can use Doc Griffin's long distance fitting program by clicking on his name at the top of any of his responses here and on his web site clicking "Long Distance Fitting" to get the forms and information necessary.
I guess I'm one of the ones
I guess I'm one of the ones who is more secure using data from rather than just feel. One day, on nice grass onto a flat green, from just off the green with no one behind me, I practiced chipping with my 7, 8, 9, PW, GW, SW, and LW, all with hands back 90 degrees (9 o'clock). It was amazing how the distances all varied by five yards. This has calmed my mind down on chips ever since. I can proportion each club into thirds, and I can use each data point as a starting point to make approximations for the slope of the green and the condition of the grass. If nothing else, it has calmed my mind down and increased my consistency. Oh, another benefit--I haven't chipped as short as I used to when I was going more guessing. Anyway, works for me.
I actually have used the
I actually have used the marker-line-on-the-ball method to check some of them, and the lies are fine on those ones, but I need to go through the whole set. Really, I need new clubs though, as these were built to the specs of 18 year-old me.
Good to hear the cast is off.
Good to hear the cast is off. Good luck on the rehab. The wrist strength should come back pretty fast.
There are some pretty good wrist roller exercisers on the market and another one that I like that has a tension spring on top and you flex the wristÃÂ up and down. That along with the little hand squeezers are a pretty good workout.
When I was young I had a 20 pound weight on a 4 foot rope tied to a short stick with a hole in the middle and the end of the rope going through the hole with a knot holding it in place.
I would hold out the stick in both hands at arm's length and roll the weight up and down over and over. If I made one today I would probably have to use a lighter weight.
Does tending to hit the ball
Does tending to hit the ball toward the toe mean the lie angle is too flat or too steep?
The standard length for a men
The standard length for a men's PW is 35.75* Just an FYI
I agree. People keep asking
I agree. People keep asking me why I keep wanting to change my swing because it repeats over and over my response is yes it does but that does not make it right to many moving parts and to much timing involved but I am closer to what I want 3/4 back swing just need to ingrain it. But I may be at a point of how much better can I get. My goal last year was to shoot in the 70's more often than not and stay there but is it a reality for a weekend warrior to shoot in the 60's constantly. I am going to try and get into the 60's a few times before the end but we will see.
Point being my swing looks horrible but I am shooting in the 70's. I may be my own worst critic. ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ
ÃÂ Mike,
ÃÂ Mike,
Surge is the one who said 30* at the ankles, 30* at the knees, and 30* at the waist. The important part of that is the point of reference for each angle. Each one is measured 30* from a vertical line, starting from the ankle. If you flex your knees so that the hip joint stays over the ankles and the lower leg is 30* from vertical (out toward the toes), the upper leg will be 30* from vertical in the opposite direction. Bending 30* forward from the waist then allows your arms to hand vertically over the toe line. 30* is a relatively small amount. Look at Surge's down-the-line views to see what 30* looks like. He gets really close. I find that when I flex more than 30*, I revert to a rotational swing. If I stay really close to 30*, I am more upright and can swing vertically.
I'm going dark and mask next
I'm going dark and mask next week.
Thanks for your feedback.ÃÂ
Thanks for your feedback.ÃÂ I will run through the options you suggested (set up) before I look at anything else.
Yep, she looks like the best
Yep, she looks like the best at the beginning. I'm with you on the rotary. Kind of what I was thinking when he said Sugar Ray was too vertical and no hand/wrist breaking/action.
Steve,
I'm sure you can catch the 1st episode in one of the many replays.
PMG
I certainly agree with you on
I certainly agree with you on presentation but I am not a professional videotographer nor ever professed to be. ÃÂ I am also not trying to train anyone yet just convey information. ÃÂ It does seem to me that you must have gotten a good bit of the information even though my presentation was less than professional.
I am human and could very well have made a mistake. ÃÂ Please point out precisely what the contradiction was regarding lie angle. ÃÂ Thanks.
Getting the feel of the difference between swing weighted or MOI matched was never a point that I brought up. ÃÂ I merely stated that I build to MOI. ÃÂ Finding the correct MOI is important but if you build to swing weight then finding the correct swing weight for the player is as important. ÃÂ Whether you choose to then build to MOI or swing weight is personal preference. ÃÂ I prefer to do it MOI. ÃÂ As to gram weight and length, there are certainly things you can do to make MOI matching easier. ÃÂ The difference in gram weight is pie in the sky as ÃÂ you probably know that most manufacturers don't have that much control over weight from one club to the next. ÃÂ 3/8" differential is certainly preferable and make MOI matching easier. ÃÂ However, it doesn't guarantee the match as theÃÂ discrepancies in head weight can throw it off. ÃÂ So, having an MOI machine insures that it can be done. ÃÂ Simple fact is that MOI matching was first (be around since the 1920's so it's nothing new) and swing weighting came as aÃÂ derivative of MOI matching. ÃÂ Swing weighting was quicker and less expensive 90 some odd years ago. ÃÂ The current MOI machine has made it quite simple, quick, and relatively inexpensive.
As for your issue with whether or not only more advanced club fitter is able to deliver MOI services, the issue would not be with me. ÃÂ I don't write the intro below the video. ÃÂ However, I don't know of many fitters that are not a bit more advanced than the average that do MOI matching. ÃÂ But, certainly, you don't have to be advanced fitter to do it but I also don't think you'll find many advanced ones that don't.
In no way is my response to intended to be defensive but rather informative as is the intent of my videos.
Oh, I have yet to crack a
Oh, I have yet to crack a cast head. ÃÂ There are cast heads out there that are actually easier to bend than some forged heads. ÃÂ Is your friend in the club business? ÃÂ I am asking because when bending a club you are moving the hosel, not the toe.
I would NEVER get my hands
I would NEVER get my hands anywhere near 9 o'clock for a chip from just off of the green or I would be decelerating all the way to the ball.
On the rare occasions that require a full flop shot from up close I might get my hands that high but for standard chips my hands might go back anywhere from a few inches to 7:30 or 8:00 o'clock depending on how far the chip needed to fly or roll.
Even on standard shots of 30 to 40 yards with a sand wedge my left arm never gets any higher than about 8 o'clock.
Even all gravity, with no muscle applied, from 9 o'clock without a conscious effort to slow it down would hit the ball over 50 yards with a sand wedge.
I do have one quick question.
I do have one quick question. You didn't demonstrate it in operation, but what's the Moment of Inertia for the bobble head Doc's head?
Not only are we treated to
Not only are we treated to vitriol, but also veiled threats. Doc teaches good sound expertÃÂ clubmaking and fitting principles, as opposed to what you call "the PPGS golf fitting system".ÃÂ My guess is Doc would be the first to tell us that.ÃÂ I doubt that Don or Doc have considered making PPGS organization the purveyors of a golf religion, and so I am certain they are not averse to considering other ideas. I doubt seriously that they would ban me from the site because they feel I am preaching heresy or attempting to undermine their tenets. I am not.
I am curious, however, how you feel you have the authority to speak for the other members, and more especially, why you apparently areÃÂ so threatened by something as inncuous as a discussion about clubmaking/fitting methodology.
Oh--and by the way, I am still waiting for some sort of documentationÃÂ of your credentials.
Sic semper tyrannis.........................
MOBILE FITTING is now
MOBILE FITTING is now available!!! Information available on our site: www.docgriffingolf.com
MOI measurement takes a MOI
MOI measurement takes a MOI instrument.
Doc,ÃÂ Loved your
Doc,ÃÂ Loved your discussion on lie angle/M.O.I.ÃÂ Last year I purchased an OEM set of irons that swing weighted at D2 thru the set.ÃÂ Right or wrong IÃÂ bought themÃÂ with graphite stiff 75gm shafts in an attempt to increase ball flight over my old forged clubs (steel 120 gm R300 flex).ÃÂ In spite of the fact that the lofts of the new irons are 2 degrees stronger than my old forged clubs, my ball flight was significantly higher.ÃÂ Mission accomplished.ÃÂ My problem was that the clubs felt too light.ÃÂ I did some research on line and became intrigued with M.O.I fitting.ÃÂ Consulted with some fitters, and it was suggested that I start with the PW and add 2 gms of lead tape until I found a "feel" with the PW that performed to my satisfaction.ÃÂ I did this and found my preferred feel at E0 swing weight with the PW.ÃÂ Without going the route of the algebraic computations to determine the exact length and weight of each higher numbered club, I reduced the swing weight of each club 1 swingweight as IÃÂ moved thru the set, ending up with D7 with the 5 iron.ÃÂ While I understand this is not the way it is typically done to MOI a set, it did not require disassembling the set of irons to affect the exactÃÂ changes.ÃÂ ÃÂ I like the feel of the clubs, however contact on the clubface consistently is center to toe, on every club.ÃÂ Did I screw up the lie angle or some other dynamic aspect of the set with my tinkering?ÃÂ I really do like the feel of the clubs now.
Kevin,
Kevin,
From the ankles to the knees is between 13 and 18 degrees. Knees to hips are 15 to 20 degrees. Spine angle, as you say, is close to 30 degrees.
If Surge said the knees are bent 30 degrees he is mistaken.
With an 8 iron measured off of a vertical line from the ankle bone up through the body, and from the center of the knee to where it dissects the vertical line on the hip, and from that intersection to the middle of the spine at the neck:
Surge: Ankle to knee 16*. Knee to hip 18*. Spine angle 32*.
DJ: Ankle to knee 15*. Knee to hip 18*. Spine angle 36*.
Me: Ankle to knee 18*. Knee to hip 18*. Spine angle 29*.
Enjoying these videos Doc,
Enjoying these videos Doc, and feel I am getting a much better understanding as to why I need a proper fitting.
Thanks
Bill
ÃÂ Great to read good news
ÃÂ Great to read good news for a change Terry. Apart from massage and physiotherapy as suggested by Robert Meade, see if you can turn up a squash ball. Always found then good for sitting and squeezing when watching videos etc. Just get back to the course in great shape. DH
Yeah, I won't watch Haney
Yeah, I won't watch Haney because I don't want to hear his swing thoughts in my head. :)
Feherty after him is fun, though. I wish they'd spend a little more time on the interviews and a little less with him trying so hard to be funny. He's much funnier when he doesn't try so hard.
Very well put sir. ÃÂ Both
Very well put sir. ÃÂ Both swing weight and MOI can be correlated to each other. Swing weighting was a quick approximation of MOI. ÃÂ I don't believe though in my video that I stated one was better than another only that I use MOI and finding the correct MOI is anÃÂ integral and important part of my fitting process. ÃÂ However, I will now say that I think it isÃÂ preferable. ÃÂ To make this point a bit moreÃÂ succinct, a swing weighted set of clubs at D2 all have the same swing weight of D2. ÃÂ Pardon me for stating the obvious. ÃÂ However, and MOI matched set of irons starting at the 3 iron with a swing weight of D2 would run all the way to a swing weight of 5.5 in the PW. ÃÂ I don't know about you, but that's pretty significant to me. ÃÂ I would think the "feel" would be quite noticeable.ÃÂ ÃÂ
Definitely something I'll
Definitely something I'll need to get checked. My poor clubs haven't been looked at since they were built 25 years ago. :)
ÃÂ I wasn't playing, so I
ÃÂ I wasn't playing, so I wasn't in any situation where decelerating would be a problem.ÃÂ I was merely chipping balls onto the green to check my distances.ÃÂ Might come in handy--I play on two courses that host PGA and LPGA tournaments, and the greens are huge.ÃÂ WhenÃÂ I'm 10 yards short of the green and the flag is near the far side, I'm a long distance from the cup.ÃÂ
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