Club Fitting Series With Doc Griffin: Lie Angle/M.O.I.

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 23:22 -- Don Trahan

Today's daily is the next installment of Doc Griffin's series on custom club fitting. In this video, Doc covers some common misconceptions on how lie angle is measured before he gets into the weighty subject of determining the proper MOI--Moment of Inertia--for each client.

In my opinion, getting the MOI of the whole club correct is right there at the top of the list of things that are essential in a custom club fitting. The MOI of the club is important to matching the swing feel of all the clubs in the bag. Current club fitting theory states that if all clubs in a set are made to have the same, identical MOI, the golfer will be more consistent because each club will require the same effort to swing.

However, not all club fitters know how to find the correct MOI for each client. Instead they use a method for matching clubs in swing feel that is called "swing weight matching". Swing weight is an expression of the ratio of the weight in the grip end of the club to the weight in the rest of the club on down to the clubhead. Swing weight matched golf clubs are not matched for MOI, but may come relatively close to MOI matching. MOI matching of clubs is a swing matching system currently offered only by more advanced custom club makers like Doc and our other PPGS certified club fitters.

Keep it vertical!

The Surge

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Comments

Robert F's picture

Submitted by Robert F (not verified) on

On a more serious note, and to stay away from the shaft measuring that seems to be going on, I hope everyone in the Swing Surgeon family who lives in the central Midwest is safe today and stays safe through the upcoming storms. 

Doc Griffin's picture

Submitted by Doc Griffin (not verified) on

Golf Pros as a group are not trained in fitting much less to the degree that we are fitting.  You have options.  We have our fitters listed above under the tab labeled Instructors/Fitters.  We do offer the long distance fitting program available on our web site at: www.docgriffingolf.com     We have also instituted a new program called the Mobile Fitting Program whereby we will come to you.  Information is also on the site.  

Dick Lee's picture

Submitted by Dick Lee (not verified) on

 Coach

Thanks for the update pal.  Glad it went well.  Take your time and before you know it, you will be back to form.

Dick

T Medley's picture

Submitted by T Medley (not verified) on

Steve,

Have you been watching me, or what. I always thought that was my shadow. What a sneak!

Not that you need it, but I totally agree with you. Perfection is unattainable, but we can still manage to get closer to it, than we presently are. I continue to strive towards that mark.

On another point. Anyone see the first episode of this season's Haney Project yet. Looks to be a good one with the four competitors. 

PMG

Dave Schindler's picture

Submitted by Dave Schindler (not verified) on

Mr. T Medlley:  Apology accepted without any prejudice on my part. I regret, sincerely, if any thing I either opined or suggested as fact, actually precipitated ill feelings. That was not my purpose. I have great respect for Doc and Dan.

DAS

Dick Lee's picture

Submitted by Dick Lee (not verified) on

 Doc

Well, you have a good starter kit.  If the golf fitting gig don't work out, you can always start knocking off some 7-11 stores in your area.

Good to have something to fall back on,
Dick

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade (not verified) on

Charlie,
Sorry I did not see your response sooner. Yes absolutely that could be the reason for you compensations with your sand wedge. The miss hits can be exaggerated by the higher loft of the wedges too. Again, more loft = greater compound angle effect of the lie and loft.
If this motivates you to get your lies checked and adjusted it is well worth it. Remember, this is normally a minimal charge with most fitters. While they're at it be sure and have them check your lofts too. The same machine checks and adjusts both. You'll want to make sure you still have correct loft gaps in all your irons.
As I mentioned before, I would wager that very few of all the 1000's of bloggers who view this site have ever checked their lies whether they've had their clubs 3,5,10 or 20 years. Yet it can be one of the more important and easy fixes we ever do. If your a 20 handicaper or a single digit player it is just as important and just as cheap to fix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Robert F's picture

Submitted by Robert F (not verified) on

"It seems to me that SWT is a static measurement and MOI is a dynamic measurement."

More or less correct. My understanding (which hopefully Doc will correct if I'm talking out my ass): Swing weight is a measure of the relative distribution of the weight along the length of the club. Moment of Inertia is a measure of how much force needs to be applied to accelerate the club head a given amount around its arc. The latter is affected not only by the distribution of weight in the club, but also by the flex and torque properties of the shaft as to how they transmit the force applied at the grip down to the head.

Doc Griffin's picture

Submitted by Doc Griffin (not verified) on

Position on face as high or low has to do with the angle of attack and ball position.  I pretty much hit it dead center because I play the ball a bit more forward and I sweep the club.  Those that hit down and take divots will generally hit it a bit lower on the face.

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

Well let's see....

1. I could see everything I needed to see very well.

2. The audio was great.

3. I suspect that the contradiction "vis-a-vis lie angle" that you think you heard after you "listened carefully" is that he said the lie angle at address made no difference at all. Then when describing the lie angle at impact he said it makes a big difference. No contradiction there. One has nothing to do with the other.

4. I never once heard Doc say anything about "only more advanced clubmaker/fitters being able to deliver MOI services". I'm pretty sure if he did address that issue he would have said that it's probably much easier for an experienced club fitter to make those adjustments than those of us trying to get it right in our garage.

On "MOI vs. Swingweight" I'll leave that debate to people with more experience than I have but for the time being I'll take the word of a club fitter over someone that claims to have studied "behavioral science" that has supposedly done small experiments.
BTW what in the heck does behavioral science have to do with lie angles?

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

If you are talking about a 9 o'clock shaft angle that is very different from the hands being at 9 o'clock.

Personally I don't agree with either because some chips only require a few inches of back swing but I could live with the shaft at 9 o'clock. No way I could live with the hands at 9 o'clock. That would be as much as many of my full swings.

Edit:
We probably don't chip that differently from each other. It just sounds that way when we describe it and I don't follow any set rules.

Robert F's picture

Submitted by Robert F (not verified) on

I'm sure there are ways you prefer to make your wife's eyes roll up in her head. ;-)
But, this is fascinating information to me. May well explain why my 9 iron and pitching always end up 10-15 yards right of my target.

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

I asked Doc one time about whether anyone might need to have a different set of standard progressions from the shorter clubs to the longer clubs. Sort of seemed to be the case for me at that time.

He named one of the pros and said his set had 3 sets of progressions through the set (if I remember right). Not normal but I guess not unheard of either.

Bill Koch's picture

Submitted by Bill Koch (not verified) on

I really enjoy the Doc Griffins sessions on club fitting. My one complaint is however, the lighting of the videos. You need a reflector of some kind on the lower right to cast more light on Don's face and soften the light on his left side.

Dave Schindler's picture

Submitted by Dave Schindler (not verified) on

As I said, above, I have great respect for Dan and Doc, and I am not happy with the possibility that anything I offered as either opinion or fact may have been offensive. As for disagreement, I usually consider that as an opportunity to learn something valuable.

DAS

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade (not verified) on

Thanks Doc.

 The importance of having our lies checked periodically is something I have repeated several times now to the Surge Nation. As you stated it can effect our hitting the ball left or right and blaming our swing when it is the lie angle that is off. This is likely detected as a swing flaw and we make compensations for those misses. This is part of the reason we have favorite clubs too. Certain clubs seem to give us a straighter shot while others may seem to always pull or push. It may be as simple as getting those lies (and lofts) corrected. I throw in lofts  because those can as easily be fixed (accept for r7's?) and could be why we hit certain clubs the same distances regardless of what is the stated loft. (incorrect gapping between clubs) Of course everyone should get professionally fit clubs but in the mean time having their lies adjusted is not expensive but vitally important. If we play frequently or abuse our sticks playing off hard pan, occasional rocky areas and just from normal yearly use, it can almost be gaurenteed that your lies are off a bit or a lot.......... I would love to take a survey of how many golfers who visit this site have EVER checked their lies since buying their clubs 3,5,10 years ago..........[side thought; if you bought your clubs off the rack they have likely not had accurate specs from the day you walked out of the store] I am in the process of searching Las Vegas for a fitter that can check (and adjust if needed) my lies. Even though my new clubs were just fit and built last summer, playing one to three times a week, I now want to check 'em out asap. Yes I have taken some swings out of the dirt and rocks. If you saw the PGA match play from Tucson last week you can get an idea of some of the shots we need to hit here once in a while!

BTW to Robert F. I think I found a qualified guy who can adjust our lies here in LV.
Let me know if you want to have yours checked out.

CharlieY's picture

Submitted by CharlieY (not verified) on

Robert--thanks for the advice and encouragement to get my lies and lofts checked.  This must be an example of the power of conversations because it is exactly the motivation that I need to make the move as I tend to put things off.  P.S.  I am very much impressed by your drive to become an expert club builder and fitter.
  

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

Mike,
Is your club head flat on the ground at address?
Like most of us your hands are higher and more toward the ball at impact than they are at address. That combined with any toe down from the shaft drooping would make a pretty big difference.
The grip end of your club is 3 or 4 inches higher at impact than at address. Mine is about 2 inches higher at impact. Surge's is between mine and yours. DJ's is less than an inch different at impact than at address.

That shaft angle change is independent of shaft droop which would change the toe down effect even more.

Add: Hey Roger. Where are ya'll getting that there should be 30* knee flex?

Nobody I have ever seen has more than 15 to 18 degrees off of a vertical line. 30 degrees would almost be squatting down.

Doc Griffin's picture

Submitted by Doc Griffin (not verified) on

No, that would be in the range of about 1/2 to 1 inch short depending on just what is the longest club in the bag.  If you start your irons at say a 7 iron, a men's standard would be good.  If you start at a 3 iron, 1" short would be good.  If you start at at 5 iron, 1/2 to 3/4" short would be good.

CJ's picture

Submitted by CJ (not verified) on

Hey Doc,

He is an golf hack like me.  He got a bunch of club fitting stuff at a sale.  So this is more back yard engineering / trial and error.  Yes he bends the hosel (I call it the neck) not the toe.

Thanks again for the video and looking forward to the next one.

CJ

shortgamewizard's picture

Submitted by shortgamewizard (not verified) on

 Talking about the shaft angle.

I do hit long "chips' by taking the hands back to the 9 o'clock distance. For example hitting an 8 iron instead of a sand wedge into a strong wind. For me it is a lot easier than feeling the shot with the sand wedge to get the same trajectory and spin.

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

 I'm pretty much an equal opportunity employer for my clubs. I can hit any of them equally bad at any given time. I can hit them right, left, short, long, crooked and straight.
My favorite is always the last one I hit a good shot with.
Ha ha!

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

It's probably a little late in the game to re-do the video but it is completely inaccurate about the knees.

Many things about a golf swing are subject to opinion and right and wrong are hard to define or determine.

That is not one of those things. It is very easily measured. The only reason nobody has ever had a problem with it is because if someone tried to actually flex the knees to 30* it would be so obviously wrong that they would ignore it and go on.

BTW Your last video is a little hard to measure exactly right because of the loose pants but within a few degrees:

Ankle to knee 11*.
Knee to hip 16*.
Spine angle 27*.

Here is an example of how far 30* would be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

T Medley's picture

Submitted by T Medley (not verified) on

 Robert,

The Adams sets are built with a 3/4 difference between clubs, rather than the standard 1/2. At least my A4os set was.

PMG

MikefromKy Go Bama. Go Irish's picture

Submitted by MikefromKy Go B... (not verified) on

 I knew I heard it some were. I agree to much knee flex is not good. My spine angle has been measured on a computer @ 40* .

Roy Reed's picture

Submitted by Roy Reed (not verified) on

Doc Griffin: Well done - another super installment concerning the fitting process!  I liked your mini-doc too, but you should have had him doing a nice TEF song for the intro.  lol   Keep up the super work and thank you for shedding light on this very important part of our game.  May the force, er fitting,  be with you. R2   

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade (not verified) on

Thanks Charlie. You have encouraged me too and helped many of us here more than you may realise. As far as the club fitting thing,well who knows. It is fun and the only way we do anything is by trial and error and courage. The older I get the less I fear. It's cliche but true, life is short so why not invest and do that which interests us? One of my motivators is the gentlemen who fit my clubs in California, Leith Anderson. He is like 65 and didn't even get into fitting until some 10-15 years ago. He's PPGS certified and running a great business just south of San Fransico. Of course Dov Griffin is an inspiration too and I have now met him twice. Surge surrounds himself with some real genuinely nice people.
Be sure and let us know who you find for your clubs and when and how that goes. Hopefully you'll meet a Certified fitter and a better, one that is PPGS approved. Either way getter done pal.

Robert

Doc Griffin's picture

Submitted by Doc Griffin (not verified) on

Please tell me where he says this.  I've never seen or heard but then, I've not read or heard everything.  I do know that the spine angle tilt is 30*.

MikefromKy Go Bama. Go Irish's picture

Submitted by MikefromKy Go B... (not verified) on

"MOI vs. Swingweight"
With  my MOIed clubs my misses are not as bad as with unfitted clubs. The difference that i feel is the weight of the clubs being heavier for me which I like. I do not dispute either method and would not attempt trying to MOI a set on my own. I would say there is more to it than described above my length difference between clubs is a 1/4" and I like my clubs.

IMO it really boils down to having properly fit clubs which will help to a point and will not guarantee that you will instantly become a scratch player you must practice and practice to become better.

You cant by a golf swing.  

CharlieY's picture

Submitted by CharlieY (not verified) on

Shortgamewizard—thanks for the two posts on chipping. They give me just the confirmation I need to keep using the method and not change to something else on the first bad day. I’ve played only five rounds since I learned my club distances, and it is difficult to determine after a good day chipping if it was the calibrated distances or something else. I hope I can get to playing around with opening the club face soon. I play on courses where the lip of the green on the back side is quite a bit higher than the front side.

T Medley's picture

Submitted by T Medley (not verified) on

 Comment removed by poster. My apology for being too harsh and critical. Let's just call it a shoot from the hip misfire, and say I shot myself in the foot.

MikefromKy Go Bama. Go Irish's picture

Submitted by MikefromKy Go B... (not verified) on

Its a force of habit no thought of going to parallel it just happens but I would say trying to hit it hard . Standing taller seems to help the balance issues.If I turn and lift and stop I get into a good 3/4 swing left arm on the toe line and hands 2-3 inches below the back shoulder I can get to shoulder high but not concerned about that and is not the goal. I just need to suck it up and in grain this. More than 50-60 % its up over the back shoulder.

I have to be patient and not expect immediate results.

Doc Griffin's picture

Submitted by Doc Griffin (not verified) on

I told the director that but he just wouldn't listen!  I am glad that you could tell it was me none the less.  Glad you enjoy the videos and thanks.

Boogm's picture

Submitted by Boogm (not verified) on

 Glad to hear that you're cast free, Terry, continued success as you get the hand back into shape.

CJ's picture

Submitted by CJ (not verified) on

Hey Doc,

Do you have any thoughts on Cast vs Forged irons?  I recently bought some MX-25s so I could try a Forged iron and could adjust the lie angle back and forth with out worry of cracking the neck of the head.

CJ

CharlieY's picture

Submitted by CharlieY (not verified) on

I know of a Swing Surgeon certified fitter 17 miles south of me and a USGA certified fitter 8 miles north. 

On a different subject, one from the blog on the "fall line" that didn't draw much conversation, I tried it yesterday.  Maybe there are flaws in the theory, but it worked a lot better than my usual
method of combining past history and guessing.  I have to admit, though, that the benefit may have been in the extra time I spent looking at the slope of the green.  An interesting point--If I had time to look for the fall line for another guy's putt, I could see immediately that he was going to miss low of the hole if he didn't didn't hit his fall line.  My lack of knowledge lies in missing high of the hole.  I can't tell if the putt hit the fall line too high or at the wrong speed and rolled past it.  I think I'll play around with it a little more.

T Medley's picture

Submitted by T Medley (not verified) on

News release:

The cast is off and I am actually typing with two hands again. It is hard to believe how weak the wrist becomes when not used for 6 weeks. It hurts worse to flex the wrist than the thumb. A temporary actuality though, which I intend to attack aggressively. The Doc says I can to what ever I can tolerate, but to cautiously start out slowly, knowing that my wrist has become severely weak. I will start with some in house putting and chipping and hopefully move quickly to no ball swings. First rehab therapy comes tomorrow afternoon. OUCH!

PMG

Wpkivi's picture

Submitted by Wpkivi (not verified) on

My question has two parts. First, does the lie angle change (meaning +/- from standard) going from 5i to 9i? Does using a hybrid set (Adams A3's) pose more discrepancies in lie angles? Thanks for doing such a good job of educating golfers about the variables of clubs.

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