Club Fitting Series With Doc Griffin: Lie Angle/M.O.I.

My Goodness!!  A veritable firestorm of sarcasm and personal animus.  Ok, if credentialism is required, in order to post,
fair enough:  How about BA & MS in Psych. How about work in the Defense/Aerospace industry as a Human Factors engineer on Command Control systems.  How about accreditation, both [former] PCS and GCA. How about PGA credentials and four years on the Sr. PGA [now Champions] as a clubmaker ?
I think my comments were reasonably stated. Yours, IMO, are somewhat overstated, sarcastic, angry, abusive and of little use in a straight forward discussion.
Since you are"contradicting" what I posted, I believe it only fair that you now post "some type of documentation as to your expertise in detracting from" what I have said.  I am especially interested in how you came to the conclusion that I do not "even recognize the difference and importance between static and dynamic lie angles".

...sarcasm is a defense mechanism used by a person who does not have--a better argument.

Great news T. Slow but regular rubbing and stretching. it'll be slow going at first and then more strength and flexability will come. Have faith:)

It could if the shaft tip is extremely week.  However, more times than not it's improper position of ball at address and/or improper swing path coming into the ball.  What I see a lot of times is people think the ball is in the middle of the club face but it's actually out at the toe.  Have someone check this for you.

T, hoping the wrist is ready to go when spring gets here.  Good luck.

Excellent comments, Dave.  I know how to measure SWT, but not Moment of Inertia.  It seems to me that SWT is a static measurement and MOI is a dynamic measurement.  Or, is that incorrect?  Also, obtaining the correct balance in a club still requires that correct shaft flex and torque.  Much of this depends upon the knowledge and esperience of the fitter and trial and error.

Here's a shout out to you Doc. Great videos on club fitting. My question is this in regard to irons: We all want to hit the ball in the middle of the clubface, as you described in your video however, how about the location of the hit in terms of high or low on the clubface. I've attended several PGA events and most guys, if not all, hit it dead smack in the middle, from heel to toe. But there seems to be a little difference in the location; that is some guys hit it dead center and yet I've seen guys who hit it on the lower grooves. Can you elaborate please? Thank you. 

LOL...Darth Griffin?

 Thanks DH, I have a very similar item as the squash ball to squeeze,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Boob...

I got it from a cousin as a gag gift a few years back and just stuck it in a desk drawer. Never thought it would become a useful item.

I went to my 1st therapy session today. The young lady took all the necessary range of motion readings and strength tests and released me from any further therapy, other than Daily home massaging and stretching  routines, 3 to 5 times per day.

If I improve enough by next Wen/Thur the weather looks good for a possible round.

PMG

Robert I agree about the lie angles talked to my fitter and am going to get them checked at the end of the month after I work on what I am working on for a while. His suggestion was that standing taller and setting up with the heel up at address to get the hands higher may not effect the lie angles at impact but if I start toe digging and or losing shots to the right then they will defiantly need to be changed and we are going to check them later no matter what. He said If which I am not going to a flatter swing then he said I would have to have them bent flatter more than likely.
I have not been losing shots right yet but we will see.

What I am doing is exaggerating having the high hands to ingrain it by setting up with the toe down.    
Edit add

Steve
Actually when I would setup to the ball the club would set up with the head flat on the ground and I understand that has nothing to do with impact. But my hands being low at address IMO creates a angle between my hands and shaft sort of a cocked position if that makes sense. In order to get my ankles more under my hips I have to stand taller less spine tilt which gets my hands higher I am actually exaggerating standing taller like I feel like I am standing straight up and down but I am not to the point of sitting up toe down to help ingrain the posture change and am hitting straight shots. If I try to add more knee flex 30* I feel like I want to fall over forward. So standing taller seems to be working well and staying in balance through the swing. I just need to get the 3/4 bus ingrained and timed right. The lie angles were set for a vertical swing and may not need to be changed at all but he wants me to work on these changes before we check them to be sure hope this make sense.

ADD
That's why I suggested the other day replying to RM that having the lie angles set flatter to begin with was a band aid to help correct the hooks even though I am not toe digging swinging vertically. I was getting them checked at the end of the month anyway. I will be interestng to see if they need to be changed end the end because of a posture change of about maybe five or six degrees. I get what you are saying about the hands being further away and higher at impact.

Steve,

See my response above to Robert F what the difference would be in an MOI matched set as opposed to a swing weight matched set.  It's pretty significant if you ask me.

Doc; Thank you for your efforts.  Since Don keeps sending his emails, I feel I can justifiably do some well-meaning feedback, on behalf of your viewers.
I want to emphacize, there is no attempt here to embarrass or talk down to anyone.
First, in making the presentation more professional, based on 38 years in the training business, if you do not have good lighting AND good audio, you will make it very difficult for many of your viewers to receive everything you wish to convey.
Next, I listened carefully, and I believe I heard you contrdict yourself vis-a-vis "lie angle".
Last, with respect to the "new mystique" of MOI, you and I know that there is little real difference between a swing-weighted and MOI weighted set.  My training is in the behavioral sciences, and I have done several reasonably controlled, but small experiments--MOI vs. Swingweight, with single digit handicap players. I have yet to find  one who can detect a just noticeable difference between the feel of the two.  More importantly, in terms of quality and consistency of swing results, I have yet to find any significance of difference between the two.  With respect to whether only more advanced clubmaker/fitters being able to deliver MOI services, I must take issue with that.  It is a relatively simple matter to produce either MOI or SWT, as a function of the difference in headweight gaps- whether 7 or 8 grams, and applying the correct length differentials, whether 1/2 " or 3/8".

 Replying to your comment below about chipping. I have been using the 9 o'clock shaft angle for many years and teach it to all who want to become more consistent. I get up and down in the high 90 percentile range and chip in often.

A bonus is hitting the shots with the face open, square and closed will alter the trajectory for each club and put a bit of side spin that comes in handy for working with and against slopes.

Have you had somebody actually check your setup position to make sure you weren't setting up with the ball a little out toward the toe? 

Depending on where on the club head you add the lead tape, you can alter the toe-down effect in swinging the club, which would effectively alter the lie angle, but that probably wouldn't be consistent across all clubs the way you describe adding the weights. If you want to know if you've screwed up the lie angles, the easiest test to get an idea is the marker line on the ball. Set it up on a very low tee with the line as vertical as you can get it and see if it transfers onto the face of the club perpendicular to the groove lines.

Very confusing RE:finding a club fitter/maker in my area. Have been a member of same prominent club for 25 yrs and I doubt that  our Pro would have a clue.

 Doc,

Surge mentions the 30* angles starting at the 24-second mark of the Posture video in the Peak Performance Golf Swing Series.

Yes and no to your first queston. First, there is a difference (or should be) from one club to the next because of the length. The shorter higher lofted clubs (ie., a PW generally has a 66*lie angle 48* loft at 35" length) while a 5 iron( ie., 63*lie angle 27*loft at 38").    When determining the lie of each club each club does have a standard. Normally they will be a 1/2 degree difference from one iron to the next as each club is 1/2 inch longer than the previous and would perform more upright (toe up) if not gradually flattened in those small increments as each club is longer from weges to driver. Make sense?
There won't be discrepences if your A3's are fit correctly.

 Dave,

After a bit of time. I have reconsidered my comments to you and find them a little harsh and unnecessary. I have a tendency to be over protective of the site and the PPGS System of golf, along with any perceived criticism of Doc and Don. However, they are big boys and can take care of themselves if they feel the need. 

I still disagree with your comments, but I do apologize for the words I used to stress my disagreement. This is my attempt to be a bit kinder and gentler. Nuff said and no reply necessary. I just hate to go to bed knowing I was the horses ass!
  
PMG

 "Luke, I am your fitter."

May the fitting be with you.

Help, I can't stop.

Facinating information about the ball going 22 feet left if the loft is 4* too upright. Could this be the cause for me having to open my sand wedge to keep from hitting left?  The swing feels the same as my pitching wedge shot that goes straight, but the SW goes left. 

The intricacies of the interaction of the loft, lie, and direction that the ball leaves the club face is much beyond anything I was aware of.  Thanks for the post.  It really opened my eyes, like I'm back in college engineering classes.   

There was a guy at the range complaining to the assistant pro that he thought something was wrong with his driver that he was not getting his normal distance the pro just climbed off the mower when he was approached and had work boots on and took the driver and knocked it out to the 300 yard marker and handed back to him and walked away. This guy looks like he is swinging maybe 50% all the time and knocks the heck out of it.

Man, is that being my soap box.  The few times that I've had people say, "hey, I don't hit these new clubs any better than my old ones", I've just wanted to scream, WHAT DID  YOU THINK I WAS BUILDING, MAGIC CLUBS?

Just having a properly fit set of clubs does not replace having talent.  However, it will allow you to apply yourself and become the best that you are capable of being without the clubs being an issue!

If you don't want to keep receiving emails from SwingSurgeon dot com, you, with your years of experience, should be able to find the "Unsubscribe" link at the bottom of every email.

Sure T. My illustration was a more general answer anyway. Some golfers for example might have (or choose to have) other  differences as we go through a set. For example, Surge has played with the concept of having both his driver and 3 wood the same or nearly the same length. This would result in lie angles that are simular. (That might not be the best example since depending on the make and material woods and the driver are tougher to change the lie angles). A better example might be the short irons. Some may choose to have their ie., 54,58 and 62 * wedges the same length or perhaps only 1/4 inch different in length, again then requiring less difference in lie angles among them.The important thing is one, that it is at a point that allows for the most consistent center strike where the bottom edge strikes the earth and that it is done equally throughout the set so that one can have the greatest opportunity for consistency. As you know, the greater the loft, the more impotant correct lie becomes. the shot is effected by what is called "compound angle", that is the two angles of both lie angle and loft. Greater loft=greater compounded angles. In other words we will be more effected if lie angles that are 'off' on our most lofted clubs verses our least lofted clubs. Ironically or maybe coincidentally it is our short irons (or scoring clubs) that we need the most accuracy and so that is why we need correct lies (for us) even moreso in the short irons. ie., a 115 yard pw with 48* of loft that is 4* too upright at impact (aligned squarely at the flag) the ball leaves the clubface pulled by 3* going left pull (for a right hander) and with hook side spin will land about 22 feet left of the flag. That's a combination of 18 feet  pulled left and 4 feet of curve (added by spin)= 22 feet. This info is from Ralph Maltby's newest fitters book page 196,197.
You may find this interesting. For others like my wife, it simply makes her eyes roll back into her head.