Today I'm going to prove why there's no wrist cock in the Peak Performance Golf Swing. Paul Donlan wrote in to argue that this isn't the case based on the swing he sees each day on the daily videos. You can read for yourself that Paul isn't convinced below.
So, as I've done many times before, I will explain the difference between wrist cock and rotation. I do not cock my wrists. DJ does not cock his either. If you're one of the people who think that we do cock our wrists, then today's video is for you!
I have been watching your videos for several years now. The video that starts off with you swinging in your black hat, yellow shirt and black pants and it has "Swing Surgeon Productions" on the screen. You always talk about a vertical swing in your video. You clearly have have a 45 degree angle in your swing. It is not vertical to the ground. Your wrists are cocked also. Not as much as the pros do, but are still cocked somewhat. I don't see how one can have any power in the swing unless there is some angle on the backswing. Watch your swing on that video I mentioned above. Please clear this up for me.
Thank you,
Paul
Although I'm sure some questions will pop up in the future, I hope that today's video has put this issue to rest somewhat. When you take the club back into the mitt, there's no wrist cock. When you go up the tree vertically, there's no wrist cock. It's rotation!
Keep it vertical!
The Surge
If you can't view the YouTube video above try CLICKING HERE. You must allow popups from this site for the link to work.
Comments
No Wrist Cock, it's Rotation
Is this going to be a two or three part video ? In that the video cuts off at the 2.21 mark, as you are speaking.
John Brennen
Wrist Cock
Looks like there are some demons at work here. When I posted the above, the vid was 2.21 in duration. I scrolled up and there was the 15 minute version.
I have no answer.
Loading bug
Probably there was a loading error the first time. It happens.
right cock ?
hmmmmmmmm. 2 things. first i think the 45 degree angle Paul was referring to was the face on view of the shaft at the top of the swing, he seems to think that should be 12 o.clock whereas we know that is the view looking down the line. secondly and i know this is going to cause a stir but i have to say i was left totally confused concerning 'cocking' watching this video. Don states categorically that there is no wrist cock only rotation but then states just as categorically that the right wrist cocks ! eh?. if i have misheard or misunderstood can some one please put me right because i don;t know where i am now. cheeers. richard in the uk
Cupped vs. Cocked
When Don was talking about the right wrist during the down the line view and he said it was "cocked" I have to assume he meant "cupped" because he corrected himself when describing the same (but opposite hand) motion going up the tree after impact.
He staunchly says the angle between the shaft and the left arm don't change from a face on view on the back swing. It actually does and always gets to 90 degrees or more. That angle is not even close to 90 degrees at set up, so it quite obviously increases in the back swing even before the transition and even more during transition.
Separate pet peeve: BASEBALL PLAYERS DO NOT HAVE THEIR RIGHT ARM STRAIGHT AT IMPACT. PERIOD!!!!!!!
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/baseball/hitting/Examples/AlbertPujols.html
cupping/cocking
so how is that angle (90 degrees or more ) achieved if there is no cocking? is it simply by 'cupping ' however its achieved the result is very like what happens when cocking ocurrs .or is it achieved by rotating the arms?.
Flexation
Don calls it flexation of the wrist, he demonstrates this by showing the limited movement the wrist has when flexed vertically. If you hold your wrist
in front of you and try to move it up/down then you will see only a slight movement, it's this movement that I presume gets the club from 45* to 90*.
Cocking however is when you cup/bow your wrist horizontally and it's this movement that causes all the problems during the BUS. I can validate that due
to being taught this method from day 1 of coaching and being a prolific slicer.
Mr. Baseball
Haha....Nation...Don't get Mr. Smith started with baseball stuff.
Steve, the pix you posted are clear enough. Don and DJ (and others) can really create quite a load on those wrists as they are reaching the top, and sequencing into the FUS. Clearly, there is some is some flexation here. At the top, I also allow myself some nominal hinging.
Whatever works. It's about results.
Don't have to be
No need to be "Mr. Baseball" to see the obvious.
Why golf instructors say that and demonstrate an out and around swing that would never work is beyond me.
Instruction videos
Dear Surge,
I learn a lot from your videos, thank you very much. However, most are way too long. Keep it short and sweet and less verbage.
My thoughts... Wally
Proof there is no wrist cocking
I had to prove to my brother in law that there was no wrist cocking in my swing. Here is how I did it:
1) I got into loaded right address position
2) I lifted club with my arms to waist level
3) I made a 70 degree turn. At this point the club was just short of 90 degrees
4) finally I lifted to the top 3/4 swing position
Bingo !
No intentional wrist cocking
This swing can be very consistent because of the setup presets and limits to excess movement during the swing. Although the 90 degree forearm to shaft angle, may happen more because of forearm rotation, the momentum of the club must cause at least a little upcocking of the wrists, unless you are holding it with a death grip. Any intentional cocking or uncocking of the wrists during the swing would however, introduce an unwanted variable.
I have more problem with the issue of presetting a lot of forward shaft lean and a flat left wrist. I find it easier and more natural to make a vertical lift of the club if my left wrist is slightly cupped and the club has the shaft lean built into it by the manufacturer. My wrist flattens gradually during the backswing, with out any conscious effort, because of the pulling back and up of the right side.
wrist set as a swing thought
JB Holmes once commented that key to his distance was to maintain his wrist set, if he allowed his wrists to cock (break down) he would lose as much as 30 yards or more with his driver.
An important swing thought I use when my ball striking goes sour is to imagine an invisible finger protractor across my left wrist on the backswing like Surge demonstrated in this video. At the transition at the top of the BUS/ start of the FUS I imagine my right hand and forearm holding firm like a steel girder as my arms drop into the slot for the swing up to the T finish.
I know in reality the shaft/forearm angles change throughout the swing quite significantly. I think the key point is to try and maintain the muscle tone set at address in the hands, wrists and forearms, that the muscles stay dynamically balanced and we try to minimize any change.
Excellent
Craig, you so got it and understand. Your simple and clear points are spot on.
Your last paragraph should be read and re-read by all.
Nice to hear from you. Hope you're well.
Another Perspective
Hi Don and the Nation. I have a completely different perspective here.
It's awkward and even counter-productive to endlessly attack the rotational swing. Each time we watch a stunning, beautiful shot being made using the inferior and evil rotational swing, it can make PPGS attacks seem a bit silly and fringe. I'm just saying.
In the marketplace of ideas and products, the rotational swing has it's place but so does the upright swing. PPGS belongs, and without apology. It is a proven, body-friendly swing. Next item.
And I still maintain the the word "vertical" will continue to create confusion.
The word "upright" is very much PPGS, but is more flexible, and certainly allows connection points with a number premier PGA and LPGA players that successfully use an upright element in their swing.
Simply maintain and presume the we are a "viable alternative". With this,
there will be more traction to be found in the golf community.
I can see clearly now the rain has gone ; - )
How did the song go? I can see clearly now the rain has gone.....' Actual sunshine late morning and afternoon after hurricane force storm and torrential rain : - )
Many folk are put off by medical terminology. Do yourselves a big favour folks and watch this 4min 14second video to understand quite clearly the motions of fingers, thumb and wrist. I watched it and had I not had any medical knowledge at all it would have still been extremely interesting and informative. Clear up your misconceptions on 'wrist cock' for ever.
www.noelhenley.com/532/motion-of-the-fingers-thumb-and-wrist-language-of-hand-and-arm-surgery-series/
For the squeamish, there are NO skeletons etc.
Please do yourselves a big favour and banish misunderstandings on this topic. Enjoy. I did. DH in drier and warmer NZ
Don't be confused
Richard,
Knowing how long you have followed Surge and heard him go over this dozens of times, a little surprised his wording could throw you off. Though he said cocking when demonstrating what happens to the back hand/wrist on the BUS as the first string (that front arm) stays relatively straight going back and then opposite is reflected in the FUS as the back arm becomes the straight string on the follow through after impact. Now his wording of the arching that happens to accommomdate the flat left wrist on the way back and then then changing roles of the flat wrist in the follow through, yes that was different in wording but the same old great explanation as ever. Not confusing at all. His intention is the same as ever. Perhaps re-watching one of those many previous dailies may clear it up for you. trust me, he hasn't changed his teaching on it.
Hope you're hitting them well.
Wrist cock
Surge, I think the reason for most of this confusion is simply the use of the word "Cocked". When you did your daily you actually mention that at the top of your swing there was some wrist "HINGE" and this is what I believe some surgites are confusing with wrist "COCK". So if you hold the club out vertically in front of you and rotate the head of the club around the axis of the shaft, that would be wrist cock, and if you hold the club vertically in front of you, then lower to horizontal that would be wrist hinge
Travellers Tournament
Really Bubba? You are really going to blame the caddy because you hit one ball in the water and the next over the green?
Like they would say around here "You are the one that hit the shots Bub". It's not the caddy's fault that you half hit the first one and nuked the second one.
SMH!!!
Travelers Result
A gripping finish [no pun intended] after some sublime golf. The best man on the day won regardless of reputations. It was a big moment for the last ones standing. Bubba 'lost it' Big Time! So the blame game is invading even the blame game. Brings to mind, 'For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction' and with decisions come consequences~! IMHO Bubba demeaned himself by his reactions.
Good to see DJ hung around for the weekend. Not too ugly result for him. Something to build on.
DH in the SUN at last
Course still closed until Wednesday, but off for a swing on the deck : - )
Help with "the bump" and other comments
Greetings Don and Surgites-
Recent lessons and comments from your web site have been really helpful and informative, Don. As you might remember, I was one of your first Golf Channel students/respondents way back when---I distinctly remember saying to myself "This is the first golf pro I've ever seen whose instructions make sense", and my opinion after over 13 years hasn't changed a bit. My only regret is that I've never been able to fully incorporate the "bump" move consistently. I've tried all the drills and occasionally bump correctly and hit beautiful shots, but am in search of the "Holy Grail" technique to achieve at least 80-90% "bumping" success. If any of you reading this can suggest a move or "feeling" to get this move I would really appreciate your input. Surge usually never answers blog letters unless they are from customer service so it's unlikely he'll answer this request.
Bumping
Ray, I don't work on the BUMP any more and I can't even feel it, but when I look at my videos, it's there. Best I can come up with is that when I started pulling the Butt end of the club downwards, it somehow forces the body to bump. You can check this out by just swinging on the back lawn while being aggressive with this movement, even to the extent of leading with the butt as long as possible along the toe line or any line between the toes & ball, this will ensure that the bump is happening, then make the adjustments after.
If your'e not Bumping, then you must be coming around a little or a lot, I think the brain Knows this and makes the adjustment automatically.
The closed hip bump
You may find it worthwhile to read a comment that I made on the June 19 video blog. After trying every other method, I've finally found something that works for me. My bump is activated by a small movement of the tailbone towards the back of the left heel. Try a swing without a club and you will feel all of the right muscles of the lower body being engaged to produce that movement, without thinking about them. It feels like the tailbone is being moved a bit left of the heel line and parallel target line.
Remember that the move is a small one and not an aggressive one. You are not hitting the ball with the bump. It also helps to keep the feeling of soft arms in the transition so that they can fall correctly aided by gravity. My only forward upswing thought is " UP " after triggering it with the bump.
A side benefit of thinking about the position of the tailbone in space, while doing the entire swing, is that it helps with keeping the swing centered and maintaining levels when playing on any lie.
Thanks Neil and DN
Thanks for the bump suggestions guys. I had sent a note to Neil yesterday but it didn't show up, so here's another try. We're lucky to have people in Surgite Nation who are willing to help ----thanks again and keep hittin' em straight.
Regards,
Ray
Rotation
Nice video. My question concerning the rotation: Do I rotate my wrist at the start of the takeaway: rotating the face open up the tree and then rotate the club back to square at impact? I know one of you Surgites can give me quick answer. Thanks
Not the wrists, the arms
You don't rotate at the wrist. You rotate the arm to keep the palms perpendicular to the ground throughout the swing. The left wrist/hand should not actively change from its relationship with the left forearm until impact. There will be some passive flexation before that, but it's what the talking heads like to refer to as a dead-handed swing.
No wrist cock
I read in Golf Digest a tip from Jack about straight wrists and then came to you, thank you so much. I bought a new driver and three wood and for two months they both almost wound up on eBay, big cuts of slices. Read this tip and no more, even a draw! Get rid of Cup, quiet wrists! Great stuff & thanks. Vertical swing saved my back too!