Bad Knees? This Swing Can Help You

Keith Kent, Great link and even a 'thickie' like me can understand it [PS, I did anyway,but this is very clear].Thankyou for the clarity of in the mitt and up the jolly old tree.
Today's video was good value too.
Only 7holes today.Sunshine to darkest night in no time with Noah looking skywards again.I passed after a shower. Half an hour to the President's Cup folks yeeehaa!
Today, Driver off the first and second tees, down the middle. The tightest hole with a very narrow fairway,tall trees close on the left and a long wide drain on the right. Smoked it straight down the middle [arrogant little s*d hahaha]. Gave the old PingZing wooden 5W an outing. Not too bad, a couple of good shots with it. Only used seven clubs including the putter, ie,Dvr/5W/24degRescue/9iron/PW/SW and putter. The SW performed very well Nice to be playing for the green with SW/9iron than 4iron,5iron or 5W : - ]  Wouldn't you just know the sun is shining again hahaha. Still a great practice.Thanks again Keith for the link to the Malcolm Rawle video.
PPS Steve, I understood what you meant as well. Your explanations are easily understandable. PMGAS

The master set up position of the right elbow, suggested by Robert Meade, also helps make your pitching swing more upright and consistent.

Excellent drill to get the feel of the coil,Kevin. It made me realize, that the terminology that many of us use for the start of the BUS is wrong.i.e."the BUS is started by a turning back of the back hip and shoulder."  The hip itself, is in fact resisting the turn. The external obliques just above the hips are the engine that twists the torso.  The resistance of the hips is a governor that limits  the turn to 70 degrees.
Also a great point about the angle of the arms at address .

T, should I be off working somewhere when you have your thumb work done, best to you and I hope it's a success and your pain issue is resolved,my friend.

Steve

When I have off line shots or bad shots I usually find that my ball is warped or something on that line. LOL.

OOPS, replied to KK instead of you. Thanks also.

Lynn:

I'm just hoping It will allow me a normal pain free grip, instead of having to wrap my thumb around instead of down the side of the grip. Maybe he can streatch it a little tighter for some added distance. 

All in all there are many more good things than bad. I am impressed overall.

I downloaded the video for the down the line driver and have a couple of notes. The right arm is too high at address. The mitt looks to be 8-10" to far outside. The left knee starts to flex down and behind the ball instead of stopping when the mitt is reached. Due to the previous things the club is setting laid off in the misnamed "one plane" where the left arm is parallel to the shoulders at the top. Due to the laid off position the bump goes left, the head rotates the eyes to the left and the head slides forward a bit. The finish looks great even though the previous moves have it facing left of the target. Each swing had the mitt position gradually farther inside to where it should be.

1. Bend the right arm at address so a club fits over the right elbow and under the left one. 2. Point the inside of the right elbow more towards 12:00.
3. Resist the left knee from moving more than a couple of inches and no dipping to the right of the ball.
4. Turn slightly to the mitt before keying on the lift. The right hand needs to resist the club head from moving too far in behind the heel line so it points straight up.

I feel your swing as the first half is pretty similar to the things I had to change to start hitting the ball straight. I addition to the other points work on the cactus drill to help you feel where you should be at the top of the BUS.

Steve and Robert are spot on with their comments so some where in all this a light bulb will go on and the aha moment will direct you to the PPGS BUS. For me it was watching Surge's swing through the bag and down the line. Pretty impress example and the opening swings on the dailies keep reinforcing the image of what I am trying to get to.

Good luck.
sgw

Surge,  for that limited amount of activity you're breathing too hard ,go get that bypass checked out

Kevin, I measured all of my clubs earlier this summer and had similar results. I cut some to match progression with others. My big problem is trying to figure out what my "fit" length should be. I have short legs (and now a short spine apparently) and long 35" arms  much like Surge describes his to be. 40 years ago I used to be 5"9" now I really have to stretch to get to 5"8" with a 32 3/4' WTF. With great apprehension I started whacking my Ping G15 from 45.75", inch by inch down eventually to 42.5". I experimented with light grips and various swing weights with lead tape. And you guessed it, no real improvement in hitting it. So last week I put it back to 45 1/2 " and started over. Then I started getting the bump and hand drop into the slot better and started pounding it pretty straight, but was to gripping down a couple inches. It sure would be nice to have a certified fitter in the area. Guess I'm going to have to make the commitment to take a long drive and get it done.

Hi Folks, I have just uploaded 4 new videos of my swing, driver face on/ down line and 7 iron face on/ down line. I am happy to say I am pleasantly surprised with the progress of my swing since starting 16 month ago, I specially like my front on view and think it is pretty good.
Not getting vertical in these videos but feel I was better tonight at the range but didn't video myself, so am due another set of videos as I feel I have a improvement to record.
Click on my name should send you to my you tube page.
Cheers Keith Kent

ps would love a comment from Don, Malcolm, Lynn or infact any certified PPGS instructors!  

Hi folks, just wanted to say howdy to everyone and let you know that while I may not be posting much, I am reading the blog every morning when I get in and catching the videos. Two more weeks on this outage and I should be back to my normal routine.Keep up the good swings and stay in the present.

Jamie,

I have a theory about distance loss with the Swing Surgeon Swing.  I think those people that lose distance probably are very flexible and much of their distance with the old rotational swing came from their flexibility (as opposed to upper body strength).  Flexibility allows the big turn which, if everything is timed properly, can lead to greater club head speed and more distance.  The Swing Surgeon Swing takes away some of the advantage of that flexibility.  You no longer utilize a big turn.

I think the people that do not lose distance probably have good upper body and arm strength which are much more important to the Swing Surgeon Swing than flexibility.  The power source in the SSS is arm speed.  Therefore, anything you can do to increase your upper body and arm strength should allow you to swing your arms faster and achieve higher club head speed and more distance.

But if that doesn't work for you, don't sweat it.  Look at it like this:  You've dropped 15-20 strokes off your game and now know where the ball is going.  Isn't that a lot more fun way to play golf than to simply flail at the ball and occasionally hit a few straight ones 280 with the rest being all over the place? 

Steve, I know Tiger didn't play well Thursday or Friday but it sure seems his partners didn't help much. On Friday he did make a few good shots and that one big left to right breaker. So close on that 60 footer and  that last chip. Golf is such a game of fractions. It will be interesting to see if he has to sit out iether Saturdays morning or afternoon match. I would be slightly surprised if Freddy lets him play both. That golf course is amazingly difficult for being that short. I actually enjoy watching them deal with the long rough and outrageously fast fairways and greens. Club selection and choice of shot is everything there. Could believe Tiger hit that draw into the last hole. Seemed it had no chance o stay on the green as it came in hot. Hopefully he'll remember that from here on.The Aussies (Ogilvie and Alenby for example) both showed they know how to play this course in the wind. I guess they both live in Melborne and Geoff lives on that GC. Fun and painful to watch these great golfers figure out how to play it.
Can't wait to see it Sat./Sunday's action.

I'm not so sure about that.  I've been using the PPGS for 2 years now, and I think my timing and release are about as good as can be expected for a single-digit handicap player with only a mediocre short game.

I've measured my driver swing speed on a launch monitor with my PPGS swing and my old rotational swing, and my rotational swing is consistently about 4-5 mph faster.  I am not very strong, nor do I have particularly fast hands, but I am very flexible.  Allowing my left heel to come off the ground and the left knee to point behind the ball allows for the additional shoulder turn with the club going to parallel in my rotational swing.  I lose that advantage with the PPGS.

However, I would not go back to the rotational swing for anything.  That additional 10-15 yards I might get is simply not worth the inconsistency and off-center hits that come with the rotational swing.  Although a little shorter off the tee, I often have shorter second shots and much better lies, because I am more often in the fairway than before.  That, to me, is a much more satisfying way to play golf.

Robert Meade:

    AMEN on the Pauite facilities -- I am putting back a little eqach month already!

   Amos

Thanks Keith, great stuff from Malcom.

According to a chart that Doc supplied awhile back, the initial starting length for your WTF of 32- 3/4" should be 43". If you cut an inch at a time, you may have skipped over the ideal length of shaft for your driver. The Standard Golf Club Length Chart that I downloaded from the internet shows 3W as 1" shorter than the driver and each succeeding FW a 1/2" progressively shorter. For irons, starting at the wedges all at 34", the rest increase in 1/2" steps, in general. From those measurements, the standard charts recommend that everything be shortened 1/2" for your height and WTF.

With all that said, these are starting points. A proper fitting by a certified fitter may show that you need adjustments to those numbers to properly fit your swing. If you do the videos of your swing, you can fill out Doc's long-range fitting questionnaire and see what he recommends. Good luck.

Hi Surge,

From the great land down under, home of the Sand Belt courses in particular Royal Melbourne where the Presidents Cup is being played, I am watching some very un Surge swings do strange things here, it is very funny to a Melbourne Golfer to watch the guys try and manufactuer swings to habdle the tricky course and super fast greens.
The States might be slightly in front at the moment (Badderley is an idiot) but the greens will get your guys when it comes down to individual scores

Ozzie,Ozzie,Ozzie

Raymond
In Melbourne for the week

I think that's a fairly normal range of motion for the wrist.  However, that's not much of an advantage to the Surge Swing.

When I tried the exaggerated front foot flare of greater than 45 degrees, that's exactly what happened to my shots--pulls and pull-hooks.  Even at 45 degrees, I have a tendency to do that.  Reducing the front foot flare to 30 degrees eliminates that tendency for me, and pulls are seldom a problem.

I think what happens is that the big front foot flare allows the hips to turn prematurely, thus pulling the upper body along with them across the ball from out to in.  If you really concentrate on sliding them laterally 1-2 inches rather than turning them when you bump, that will stop that tendency.  However, I think that requires fighting the natural tendency to turn them rather than slide them laterally that comes with the greater flare.

After a couple of weeks of the pulls, I went back to the 30 degree flare, and no longer have to concentrate so hard on the hip slide; it just comes more naturally.

Robert :

    PS:  by then I will have "new eyes" :<)))) -- I am scheduled for cataract surgery in the next two or three weeks -- so probably no golf for several days.
    But maybe I can find my ball when it is in the fairway! :<)) LOL

    Keep hitting them STRAIGHT and LONG

    Amos

Surge,
Enjoyed your post that shows this is a swing even those with limitations such as a stiff or bum knee (or knees). So much can be accomodated for by the flare of the feet, particularly the forward foot. Interesting to me is to witness how with that much flare- at swings end you are in perfect balace with your finish on that forward foot.

You could also do the long distance fitting if you wish.

Hey Keith,

The one thing I'd mention is that you're not lifting with the right arm at all. You're keeping that elbow tight to your side in the BUS, which means that when you get to the top, your club is way in the SBG, so you can't free fall it into the slot. You are getting up to a nice finish most of the time, though. It's looking a lot more like a golf swing than it did when you first started posting it. (Don't mean that to sound like damning with faint praise. It's great work.)

Didn't even know you drove a cataract. LOL

My best to you as well my friend for speedy recovery!

T, I could not agree more.  This is exactly how I feel about it, too.  I never think about forearm rotation in the BUS; it just happens naturally with no effort on my part at all.  As long as everything else is turning back together, it just takes care of itself.

Nor do I think about it in the FUS unless I'm purposely trying for a big hook.

Keith,  just a few comments.  You are turning your shoulders to 90
degrees (or more) by the top of your backswing.  The Surge Swing calls
for a 70 degree shoulder turn.

To get the feel for the vertical lift and a more upright swing, try this
drill:  Get a driveway reflector rod and place it on your toe line with
about 2 feet of it protruding beyond your back foot.  When you swing
your arms back to the top, stop and look down.  Can you see the rod?  (I
know you can from the video.)  For your arms to be in the correct
position at the top, the left arm should cover the rod so that you can't
see it.  Your arms are coming way inside.

A couple more things to think about.  At the top of the backswing, your
left shoulder should NOT be under your chin.  If your arms are in the
correct position, the upper portion of your left arm should contact your
chin, perhaps 3-4" down from the top of your shoulder.  Also, to help you
achieve that vertical position at the top, you need to let your right
elbow "fly".  At the top of the backswing, when viewed down the line,
you should see an equilateral triangle with the elbows forming the base
of the triangle and that base being basically parallel to the ground.

Keith, you've already recieved alot of thoughful comments. I'll add a couple more that might seem repeatative but here goes. I think studying the "Master Set Up" may help you get that back elbow in a better position pre-swing and for take away. Let that right elbow come away from your right side and up as you get to the top. Personally that is the only way you will get vertical. It was my ahah! moment a few months ago after filming my swing. I also battle "over swinging and going tooo far back" Don't fear shortening your swing to 3/4's. You'll be pleasantly surprised that the ball will still fly far and true with a much shorter backswing. One of the best recent videos by Surge is the "place in space from last week" practice that one and it will help you get vertical on BUS and FUS finish positions. Remember if you stop at the top of back swing and loosen your grip the club should fall on the top of the traps between your head and shoulder. Yours looks as though it would miss your shoulder completely. Kudos for being brave enough to post your swings and good luck.
http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Da...

Wongphil,

Your point on loss of feel is pretty good. One of the problems I keep having is letting my left knee move in near the top of the BUS. Keeping the outward pressure on the knees until impact is very important. With PPGS, if we lose the stability of the lower body, we have problems with timing and end up losing distance.

What I have found is a good drill (for me) to get the FEEL of COIL is to sit on a chair (not one that swivels), put my palms together in front of me at shoulder height, and then turn my shoulders without moving anything else until my forward arm (left) reaches my toe line. If I start the turn by moving my right shoulder back, the turn is very easy and I get a nice stretch of the left side and reach 70* turn. If I start by moving the left shoulder forward, I only get to about 60* and do not feel the same stretch.

A point on the math - when my palms are together directly in front of me, the angle of my arms is about 20*. Making a 70* shoulder turn results in my hands pointing 90* to the right, on the toe line. Rotational swingers turn the shoulders 90* and the hips 20* for the same 70* difference, but the hands end up 20* into the SBG. Ideally, the hips should only turn in the FUS, not the BUS. Any hip turn in the BUS reduces the 70* differential which, in turn, reduces the ability to generate sufficient club head speed, all other things being constant. Maintaining outward pressure on the left knee inhibits hip turn on the BUS.

Stable lower body + 70* shoulder turn + vertical lift + gravity = maximum club head speed.

PMGAS

Coach:

    Best of LUCK!  that sounds kind of like Tommy John's surgery , but on the thumb.

    Keep hitting them STRAIGHT and LONG

    Amos

Steve:

 I have stayed out of the takeaway discussion, mainly because I have no problem with the catchers mitt and toe line. I may be deceiving myself, but I feel that I reach both points without any rotation of the hands, wrists, or forearms.

 When folks start talking about the degree of needed rotation, over and under rotation, etc, I just avoid the discussion, because I do not really want to get into a discussion challenge.

  I do not feel any rotation is needed at all, Except, by the shoulders and upper body, keeping the hands perpendicular and gently raising them along with the arms through the mitt area to the toe line, and then straight up, but always keeping the hands and forearm relationship constant to each other and perpendicular to the ground.

 We are already in a hands perpendicular to ground position at address. Not necessarily parallel perpendicular, but perpendicular at the address angle of the club shaft and arms. The only need to rotate them into a perpendicular position afterwards, would be, IF somehow they were rotated out of that original position. By keeping the hands perpendicular, and centered to the upper body in a unified (one piece) takeaway and lifting as we go, they remain perpendicular without the need for any rotation or manipulation. Just turn the shoulders, arms and upper body together, gently raising them back into/and through the catchers mitt. Since the toe is gently raised as we go, along with the raising of the hands and arms, it should go into and through the mitt TOE UP and on towards the toe line, and then straight up to our rear Place In Space, the top of our BUS.

 At any rate. I offer this as my humble opinion of how I TRY to do it. I felt after your comment, thinking folks were either ignoring your discussion or not understanding the discussion, I would offer this, not as a challenge, but as one mans simple opinion. Or maybe the opinion of a one simple man. Either one is fine.

PMG
 

Hi Robert, something you said in there has sort of clicked, you said 'let the right elbow come away' I tried this in the back yard along with a slightly stronger grip which puts the right hand/arm in a better position. I focased on the right arm and keeping the left firm, lets just say that letting the right arm come away from the body felt very strange at first but once I get used to it surprisingly the shots seemed straight in to the net and made good contact. I have no idea how these adjustments look in reality so really need to video myself and find out
One thing that has clicked is if the club is laid off with the elbow down how can you get the club in the right position/slot in the FUS as it is already there!!
cheers all Keith

Can anyone recommend free software that you can slow play videos for analysing etc.
Cheers Keith

Injury is usually caused by a sudden overstretching where your ligaments are generally only stretched out. However if they are completely torn, you should expect a longer recovery period. In worst case an surgery may also be necessary.You can prevent a sprain injury by using proper safety equipment for your wrist, ankle and knee. Other prevention methods are warming up properly and perform regular stretching before and after your soccer games.

Or when his wife came home and tells him she just saw Dr. Zhivago....and he replies  "Oh, whats wrong with ya now?"

Mike,
Hope all goes smooth and you have a great recovery too Mike. Sugery is always a tough go but  now adays they really have come along ways shoulders and knees along with other sugeries. I'm sure you'll come out better than ever. Would be great if you could make a tourny iether back east or here in Las Vegas. BTW, now that we have 11 months notice, maybe more will save and plan on the Paiute in 2012. Awesome facilities and golf. October will be in the 70's. Great for golf and instruction.

Steve:

 I agree, it happens to me also, and especially with my putting. It is also the fault of gravity that limits my length. Stupid gravity! 

Sounds good Amos. Would be super if you could come again. Played the Stallion Mountain. A really nice track that I had never played. Only $35.00. That was really cheap for a quality course.
Mostly bogie golf today. Just off on my putting. Among my few pars was on the #1 handicap hole. A long par 4. Second shot short right of the green. My 30 yard chip rolled to 4 inches for the tap in.
Only playing once a week lately and not getting to practice as much. Still was a beautiful day and glad to be healthy and a blessed to play golf. PMG

T
I agree and it sounds like you and I approach this the same way.

wow got to say I have just download V1 software and am very impressed indeed with the basic version, slow speed by tapping, draw lines, boxes, curves ,free hand, reverse frames and more. It is good to draw vertical lines on the toeline, SBG and on the plane line and a box around the head. Only messed about with down the line view on my swing and Dons.
Would recommend this software to all.
Cheers Keith