One of the big misses that amateurs have to fight is what I like to call the banana ball. This is usually when a golfer is having trouble with slicing the ball from left to right (for a right handed golfer). One of the reasons this happens quite often among amateur players is because they have an "over the top" swing. But, what causes golfers to come over the top?
This is exactly what Jeff wanted to know when he sent in a question to the website.
I am a natural south paw. I do everything left handed except swing a golf club. Please help with an over the top swing.
Jeff
Let's first define what an over the top swing is for those who don't already know or who need a refresher on the subject. Over the top means that when we make our back swing, the club has an out to in movement. Over the top is coming across the ball. Even if you're square at impact, you're still going to be coming across it so it will most likely have left to right spin and move further to the right after contact. This can also cause you to hit it thin, top it, or any other number of negative things. This is the swing that's going to create the dreaded banana ball. So, the key question is, what is causing you to come out and over the top?
The number one clue that you can almost always assume is bad alignment. Before I continue, I must remind you all of one thing. Anytime I talk about alignment in a video and I say toes parallel left, I'm always including the knees, hips, shoulders, and eyes as well. All these lines have to be consistently straight up and down.
If you turn too much from deep behind you, you're going to end up swinging out to the right because you have to get the club back to the ball. Remember, bodies in motion stay in motion the direction they were put in motion. In the mitt, straight up the tree should be your swing thought. Bad alignment, turning too much, or swinging too long are all reasons you could be coming over the top. Swinging too long can cause you to tilt your spine, which makes the club go even deeper so please keep the backswing 3/4 length.
What's the number one issue all of our instructors see in golf schools and lessons? If you haven't already shouted it at the computer screen, it's alignment! Number two is typically having too long of a backswing and turning too much. That's not to say that Surgites don't work hard on moving and turning less but it's sometimes hard for my students to comprehend that they've got to restrict it even more. Even when they think they're only going 3/4, they sometimes are still getting to parallel at the top of the swing. That shouldn't discourage you because just think of how much turn you had even before using the PPGS!
An outside, in swing is usually caused by too much turn, bad alignment, and too long of a backswing. That's why we have a 3/4 limited turn swing. Turn only to the toe line in the catcher's mitt and swing vertically while keeping your hands and club between what I call the aiming alley and you should be able to avoid coming over the top.
Keep it vertical!
The Surge
If you can't view the YouTube video above try CLICKING HERE. You must allow popups from this site for the link to work.
Blog Tags:
Comments
banana ball
I am confused. The most recent post regarding set up seemed to address more blocks than banana balls. While a closed set up seems to encourage closed face hooks, my experience has shown that setting up "open" causes the true banana ball. There was no mention of this common fault. Just wondering why it was not a part of this discussion. Thanks in advance.
Open or closed
I have found that many amatures are mis-aptly skilled enough to hit a slice regardless of where there feet are aimed! lol. That said Surge did mention that in any case poor alignment continues to be the fundamental flaw that causes the majority of bad results we may have. One key thing to repeat is that correct parallel left alignment must include the knees, hips and perhaps the most overlooked and extremely important is shoulder alignment in our set up before we begin out BUS (back swing). The set up determines the motion is true again.
Visualize if you will the feet, knees and even hips nicely square and parallel as Surge perscibes. Now we set up to the ball and prepare to swing and either because it is a longer club that requires the ball position a bit forward in the stance or because in taking one last look at the ball we turn our chest and shoulders breifly at the target (or both reasons) and now we settle back down into our pre swing set up but now still have a measurable amount of open shoulders ever so slightly aimed left of our feet, knees and hips. We can't even feel this and in most cases are not even aware of it. However this pre-disposes us to swing from out to in and across the ball. Slice, pull, push or hook, all become possibilities and when we check our feet we swear we were aligned properly. NOT! Why? Because our shoulders were open and we did not know it.
Surge has covered this a few times and refers to it as being Xed. Basically feet right and shoulders left. Easily checked if you have a friend or coach stand from behind and down the line with a stick or club laid across your chest/shoulders just before you swing. Mr.Don Trahan himself pointed this out in my set up 3 years ago at Old South during our first meeting in person.
I have been keenly aware and careful with this from that point forward and this has all but illiminated my life long over the top move. When it comes to the back, right shoulder I always remind myself, "back, down and soft" Using the "master set up".
This subject can also be found in our on line library.
Here is a couple that compliment todays video.
This first one is great but you may want to start focusing at around the 7:40 point. At that point and clearly forward he explains the master set up position.
https://swingsurgeon.com/daily-video-tips/ppgs-master-setup-position-explained
This second one has more focus on the proper shoulder tilt in our PLHR set up. Together they're dynamite.
https://swingsurgeon.com/daily-video-tips/shoulder-tilt-address
Out to in
The biggest reason most people come over the top, and out to in through impact is they don't understand how to get out of the pre-transition position.
Surge is right that getting out of that position becomes much easier with a shorter back swing. The longer the back swing and the more the turn, the more athletic a move it takes to drop into the slot.
You simply can't play at your highest level if you are swinging the club head up and out from the top. That is compounded further by the fact that most of us always want to go longer in the back swing than our flexibility allows. This always causes a break down of the left elbow and puts us in a position at the top that is too close to the body and there is simply no way out except up and out.
This swing I filmed at an LPGA event is certainly not a PPGS swing but is a great example of not coming over the top, even though it is a full turn and parallel swing. None of us are going to have the flexibility to make this swing from that depth but if we keep the swing to 3/4 and don't let the left arm break down we can do it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3gpjscwfsY
Watch the transition at the top closely, and watch the lower body allow it to happen.
over the top
I have the problem of over the top for 40+ years.With me it comes from trying
to hit the ball to hard.I know when I've done it by the results of the shot and I
immediately feel the sensation in my right shoulder.I have recently been using Don"s swing with my iron's because of back issue's,I find it does help my back and it is an easier transition starting the downswing.
With the simplicity of his swing,less angles,my only thought starting down
is to"pull the chain" I find this automatically creates "the bump".I think this reduces,hasn't totally eliminated,my tendency to come over the top.Now I can
concentrate on a fluid swing and not trying to hit the ball hard.I hope I will be
able to use his swing with driver and fairway wood shots.I know that tends to
be a problem with many people trying to use this swing.I'm meetig with Doc
Griffin in a couple of weeks,that should be interesting.
Over the top
whmitch, You may have already identified the fault which is 'defeating' your trying to be the best you can be with Surge's PPGS swing.
My old foe, timing. It is strange, but I have found that slower gives farther down the fairway distances. If you swing with as you say a swing which is trying to hit the ball too hard, guaranteed you are over the top for a simple reason. You like I was doing almost all the time, are getting in your own way on the Forward upswing. Your body hasn't the time to get out or 'your' way! Since I consciously now swing at a much better tempo, at 80% and not trying to kill the ball, it all just seems to happen. It is hard to slow down, but believe me, the benefits will amaze you. It certainly has me.
My two old Chinese friends Ti-Ming and Tem-po! Swing too fast and we haven't the time to synchronise our body parts to complete the correct movements. Good luck on your quest. Slowing down will be kinder to your back problem. DH
near perfect positions
Though as you say, not PPGS and past 3/4's this is a great example and illustration Steve. Thanks. Susan Peterson? Anyhow two other points of her swing stand out to me in relation to overthe top or not move. Notice the nice position of her right arm and forearm in the set up. Even though the angle is bit from the front and not exactly down the target or foot line her right back forearm is below and slightly under the front. Then at the 6 second point we see that right arm nicely fold back by her right hip and then if you compare this to the 22 second point it is even more under and close to her right hip as the release then gets fully completed only one click later. She has not allowed that arm to come over at any point until at and past impact.
Love it. Now if I could do it:)
Not our swing (sort of)
Even though what she is doing is not what we are trying to do (good thing because we couldn't do it if we wanted to) the principle is the same in the transition.
Just takes a MUCH better athlete to do it from her top position than from Surge's top position. Plus as we all know Surge's takes less toll on the body.
BTW I have never seen a more well conditioned athlete than she is in person.
SP
She grew up skiing in Norway. Pretty good physical training.
Some great swing movements and as a result really good tee to green.
Over the top solutions
Hi Don, as a 67 year old, I've been using your method for the past 2 years with inconsistent success due to that "over the top" move, which you recently reviewed.
For me the problem didn't seem like alignment or turning too much, so I was confused. Then I watched Dave Seamon's [I think} video on the "Bump" move, especially on how it is started slightly before reaching the top of the back swing.
WOW! That move helped me get everything going straight down the line with more distance and accuracy. My scores have gone from mid-90's to mid-80's in just a month. It's so much more enjoyable to play this way. Now I can work on that short game to get even better. Thanks! --Mike, Cincinnati
Alignment, Aliggment, Alignment.
There's always a lot of talk about alignment. I have to say that its help me quite a bit. Something you mentioned recently has me thinking though because what you said was contrary to the 'Toes Parallel Left' in keeping toes, knees, hips etc., aligned always in a straight line. What you talked about was a 'belt-buckle' shift of the hips 2 inches to the right to align the swing directly in line with your right leg for ultimate balance (for a right handed player.) Can you please explain this further and how it does not adversely affect the 'Toes Parallel Left' scenario.
Thanks,
DougK
Alignment
The slight move of the hips does not change any alignment, as it is a weight transfer onto the rear leg to get us pre loaded heavy right,or rear. We must stay PLHR until we reach the top of the back swing & then transfer the weight to the front leg to do the forward swing. The PLHR move is straight back onto the leg, not sideways, & only a small move. We need to have about 60 or 70% weight on the back leg before the start of the swing
Alignment with respect to anatomy differences/defects
Dear Don, I'm 59 years young and been playing this crazy game my whole life, but never with any consistancy until recently. I have been using or attempting to use your PPGS for about two years and love it. I'm still a work in progress but very much improved. My question is again with respect to alignment, "On, on, on- feet, knees, hips, & eye parallel left of the target line" I totally understand the need and the mechanics of it. My issue is my body; do to scoliosis of my spine, I have both minor lateral twist but also rotational twist of my spine. The rotational twist causes my left hip to be 8-10 degs. behind my shoulder plane, when I stand in a "neutral" stance for me. I'm a right-handed player & I have found that if I try to align everything (on, on & on) I have to pre-load my spine get my shoulders in line with my hips and (I think) causes the majority my shots ends up 8-10 degs. to the right of my aiming line, if I compensate for my spinal twist by aligning my shoulders & eyes to my aiming line and maintain a neutral spinal twist at set up (I look like I've open my stance 8-10 degs.) it hit the ball down my aiming line much more consistent. I'm I totally off base with my logic??
Twisted in Buffalo,
Patti
Twisted in Buffalo
Patti, guess that's better than alone in Seatle:) As much as i could follow your explaination I'd say your logic is fine. With those spine challenges it is commendable that you are able to play golf. Good for you. Certainly you need to make room for what ever adjustments are needed. Surge has talked about playing with such challenges and says each individual has to modify things for their personal physical situation and possible limits. do whatever allows you to swing. to the extent that you can follow Don's general advice it will likely help you because of his body friendly swing. goos luck and nice to read your comment.
The video I am leaving you discussed playing with physical limitations. I hope it helps.
https://swingsurgeon.com/daily-video-tips/working-physical-limitations
Video-tip/working-physical -limitations??
Robert,
Thank you for your reply & affirmation. Although I wasn't able to access the video on physical limitations, it had been removed??
Thanks again
Patti
Over the Top
Am going to add my 2 cents worth here and tell from my perspective that "OVER THE TOP" was not relevant to either alignment and or rotation, but could include over swinging. For years, being tutored by rotational PGA
professionals, over the top came from thinking of getting the club head to
the ball rather than the butt end of the club. This aspect was aptly highlighted to me by Steve Smith and from that period the light was switched
on and now able to hit far more consistently and longer down the middle.
Just recently I also decided to soften my grip on the club, allowing me to
"DROP INTO THE SLOT" a little easier.
I still can't understand why ( as I see it ) this basic mechanical action is not
made clear in any teaching manual, as most golfers who take up this game, late in life without a sporting background, would suffer from this dilemma.