Proper Rotation of Arms After Impact

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 12:00 -- Don Trahan

Controlling the amount of turn in your swing can be directly related to wrist action. If you are new to the site, first let me say that good wrist action is no wrist action! Often times, when a golfer is losing shots to the right or left, it can be because he or she is under rotating or over rotating their wrists before and after impact. The Peak Performance Golf Swing uses a limited turn, which means there has to at least be some turn. But, how much?

Tom Bobrowski will sometimes hit high, floating shots to the right and he's not real sure how to correct it. He knows that his wrist rotation is playing a big part in his misses, but he's not quite sure how to fix it or how much rotation there should be.

I seem to execute the backswing properly - into the mitt - up the tree. However, on the following downswing I often under rotate so that the clubface is open upon contact, causing a high floating shot to the right. If I try to force more rotation, I often pull hook to the left. Help!

Tom Bobrowski

You need just the right amount of rotation. But, what is the right amount and where does the rotation come from? Well, your palms need to be perpendicular to the ground throughout the swing in order to be in the rigth positions. To do this, your arms and wrists rotate together because they're connected to the shoulder in the ball and socket joint. Rotate so that your clubhead is toe up at your toe line on both sides, not any farther.

Toe up to toe up is the right amount of rotation and the best way I can explain how much to rotate your arms. Over rotating will cause pull hooks and under rotating will cause slices like Tom has been experiencing. Swing the club the way your body was designed to move and you'll be fine!

Keep it vertical!

The Surge

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Comments

rfreisi@mtu.edu's picture

Submitted by rfreisi@mtu.edu on

This latest video by Don nails one of the problems I think I have been having, and I recall posting about this a few months ago. I like the idea that the wrists automatically/naturally return to square at impact, but I'm not sure that is what happens with my swing. I think weight shift from back to front foot (I'm a leftie by the way) plays a role in getting the wrists back to perpendicular. For poor weight shift or for some other reason, I tend to under-rotate my forearms/wrists, leave clubface slightly open, and miss left of target, even with short irons. I have to consciously try to square hands at impact, and that of course, as Don has noted many times, can lead to inconsistent contact and direction. The only other thing I can think might be causing the problem is clubs that don't fit my body and swing. Mine were very roughly fit by a Taylor Made Rep. and he insisted I should have graphite shafts, said I would love them. Can't say that I do, and have made some early inquiries about a custom fitting later, in February. Any of you Surgites out there have any insights about my struggle to get the correct rotation at impact? Thanks in advance for any tips.

Randy Freisinger

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

Any swing is going to square up at some point. All we have to do is match that point with impact. (Easier said than done but true). LOL

Lots of possibilities:

If the ball is too far back in the stance the club face could be left open. That could be too far back at address or too far back after too much forward weight shift during the swing.

Could be that it's just more natural to have back palm up front palm down at impact (that's me). Most things we swing require back palm up front palm down. An ax, a hammer, a baseball bat.

Could be as you mentioned that the clubs are not as easy to square up as they could be.

Could be that you are not hitting the ball as bad as you think you are but maybe simply don't have good alignment, and are not lined up properly parallel right (since you are a lefty).

Could be that you are too laid off and can't get the palms back to perpendicular by impact.

Just my personal opinion: Whatever the problem it's easy enough to make adjustments on the course in alignment, grip, and ball position, so you don't continually keep having the same miss. Then in practice work on the fundamentals until you find the root cause.

rfreisi@mtu.edu's picture

Submitted by rfreisi@mtu.edu on

Thanks, Steve, for the suggestions. The answer is somewhere in there, I think. Two problems with following through in practice, though: 1) If my clubs/shafts are off, then I just keep struggling and mostly blaming myself for not being able to execute the PPGS properly; 2) I live in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. It's 34 outside with snow on the ground and more, much more to come. I'm hoping to get a few more moderate days of practice before the door slams shut for good until at least May. But thanks again for your thoughtful checklist of possible problems. I'll pursue them as I can.

Randy F

Russty Kiwi's picture

Submitted by Russty Kiwi on

If I start slicing or pushing the ball , Then I'm usually standing too close to the ball. I believe I need to reach for the ball ever so slightly to get a draw. If you are too close, you get an out to in swing, with club face open. If I hit the ball straight in the wrong direction, then its usually ball position, or alignment. Have a look in the search box at the top right of this page, & cheak out the archives
The key for rotation , for me , is thumbs straight up in the top of the back swing, as Surge mentioned at the end of this video, & the hard one for me, is thumbs up in the FUS, finishing by the left ear, for a righty

rfreisi@mtu.edu's picture

Submitted by rfreisi@mtu.edu on

Thanks, Russty. I can surely experiment with this suggestion. I often use impact tape or powder to see where on the club face I'm hitting the ball, and I DO see some heel hits that would suggest I'm setting up a bit too close. I use Don's hands and club butt guidelines at setup, but maybe some tweaking is in order. thanks for taking the time to offer help.

Randy F

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade on

Randy,

The only thing I would add to the idea of a fitting would be to first have the lies (and lofts) of your irons checked on a lie board with a recommended, qualified fitter. It has been noted that many (lefties or righties) push the ball because the lies on their clubs are too flat. Of course this could also be caused by your swing path and an open club face but may also be partly due to lies that are too flat. It seems like a small matter but just a couple of degrees off can mean a missed target or missed green. This is particularly true of the short irons. Why? because the lies being too flat or too upright is multiplied by more loft found in the 8-wedges. It is a very affordable fix and one all golfers should do at least once a year, preferably at the end or beginning of the season as a minimum. Why? again so you don't start out the new year of golf pushing your shots and blaming your swing only. I still hold that very few golfers including most of the Surge nation take this advice seriously because each and every time I post this reminder only one or two say they will or have had this done and certainly not as a yearly habit. I helped a fellow Surgite check and adjust his sticks and they were way, way off. Not only his lies but his lofts were no longer gaped sufficiently. Turns out he had never had them adjusted in the some 25 years he's been using them. BTW, the same tool (machine) is used to adjust the lofts and lies and should fall into the same cost at the same time. Also make sure they have you hit every iron off the lie board not taking any short cuts based only on one or two irons in your bag.

I have a loft and lie machine (along with a lie board) and just checked and adjusted mine. My sand wedge was 3 degrees too flat and it took me less than 5 minutes to adjust it. Now the strike on the bottom edge are dead center and my shots have a chance of going where intended. Three other irons also needed adjustments. Good to go now. Because I play 2-4 times a week I check mine every 3 months.

Here's a video on the importance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wBNCM_-zxA

One more clear reminder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZKMT_44vNM

This one helps us understand that even if our impact position is square
a lie angle that is too flat or too upright at impact will cause left of or right of target results. Notice again that a lofted club adds to the effect of incorrect lies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N6wHJhlzeg

rfreisi@mtu.edu's picture

Submitted by rfreisi@mtu.edu on

Thanks, Robert. That's very useful information, and the videos made your point well. I'm hoping to have a fitting in February and will have my current set looked at to see if some adjustments are in order. I've had two good sets of clubs in my later golfing life, and as I look at the records I still have, the fitters seemed to disagree about lie angle. My Titleist fitter had me two degrees flat, and the TaylorMade rep at a demo here noted on his sheet +1.5 degrees. It's possible I don't know how to read these and they are not as far apart as it seems. But my scores have dropped consistently since I got the TM Burners in 2009. Thanks again. I appreciate your thoughtful response. I'll try to let you know what I find out.

Randy F

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade on

Hmmmmnn......

Results should have been similar with both if they were the same set of clubs if done with a quality, accurate machine and a skilled fitter.

Randy, just a suggestion, you may want to not just go to a "rep" of a particular club. Make sure they are a certified fitter that does fittings and adjustments all day long. One who is fastidious, a real stickler for details as to what you are actually doing in a dynamic lie fitting with each club, not following any particular formula of standard but based on the marked results on the bottom edge of each iron. It is important that they test each club (in my opinion) because a general rule of one added degree for each club may not be right for you and your irons. (whether that be more upright or more flat). Too, different clubs (with different shafts and heads) may yield various real swing results. Interview the fitter and make sure this is not something he occasionally does but frequently and with skill. When you talk with him if he says he'll just test say your wedge and 6 iron and set all your irons accordingly, tell him you want each tested one by one dynamically (with actual swings and marking on the bottoms of each) and the gaps of the lofts checked too. if they are offended, go to another guy:) It's that important in my experience.

Dave Everitt's picture

Submitted by Dave Everitt on

There just isn't enough time to deliberately and consistently square the clubface at impact, if that's all I'm thinking of. I find it better to focus on getting the palms perpendicular at the top of the BUS and FUS. If I can do that the hands have a better chance of being square at impact. I've always used the right hand and in particular the right trigger finger image of ringing the bell, to control the clubface as well as the length of the backswing. My problem with under-rotation through impact,was helped when I started thinking about where the trigger finger was at the T-Finish.

I found that only thinking about "up" to the T-Finish, was not helping me close the clubface, because my arms tended to stop rotating before and after impact. My feeling now for the finish, is to picture myself standing in a doorway and trying to get the right trigger finger to touch the imaginary wall at the top of the T-Finish.

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

While the exact moment of impact happens too fast to be aware of that instant it is certainly possible to be aware of the position of the clubface through the impact zone.

I do it all the time. It's the reason I prefer ribbed grips so I can sense exactly where the clubface is. It's not a coincidence that tennis rackets are not round. A tennis player has to be aware of the face of the racket and it matches the grip.

Side note: This week I had gotten into the habit of just swinging without my usual clubface awareness (and wasn't hitting the ball very accurately).

By accident I hit a tee shot behind two tall flowering plants. The plants formed a window to the green from my position about 10 yards in front of me and about 4 yards apart. This forced me to regain my focus on making sure the clubface was square to that window through the impact zone. Hit the best 3 wood I had hit all day and only then it occurred to me that I hadn't been doing a good job of shot visualization and clubface awareness. For the rest of the round I visualized those two flowering plants on every shot and never hit an off line shot the rest of the round.

Dave Everitt's picture

Submitted by Dave Everitt on

This kind of gate image, also helps if not swinging "through" the ball, to the target, is a problem. The gate is also a good image for feeling set up and swing path, if you are trying to work the ball, because it can also be visualized as being left or right of the target line.

My tour wrap grips don't give me the kind of sensitivity to clubface, that you describe. It sounds like a ribbed grip on my driver would be worth a try.

Thanks,

Dave

westwood's picture

Submitted by westwood on

Hi, Today's blog was perfect for me-thank you. I developed similar problems to Tom and I think that my over rotation was due to over confidence. The PPGS gave me consistency and once I got that I believe that I started to try and 'power up' and neglect the principles learned. This resulted in poorer accuracy and more missed fairways which is why I almost gave up golf in the first place! (pre PPGS). I'm back on track now-Keep it vertical and Keep it simple. Good hunting.

rfreisi@mtu.edu's picture

Submitted by rfreisi@mtu.edu on

Robert, thanks again for the very thoughtful reply. Yes, as best as I can tell, they disagreed. Now the two fittings were done ten years apart, the first by a club pro and the second by a TM rep. The video you recommended along with your comments made me do some digging, and the more I dig the more confused. It appears to me that the difference between my first and second (the TM Burners) is 3-4 degrees, and I'm assuming that since the TM rep wanted +1.5 degrees, these clubs are more upright than the Titleist DCIs (2 degrees flatter than the standard lie angle). And just now I looked at my Burner 8 iron and it does seem to rest on the ground with the toe quite a bit up. Certainly not flat with the ground at address. With my hands where Greg MacDonell had me place them at address, the toe is clearly up (I had a half-day lesson with Greg two years ago). Based on the video, this would make me tend to pull or hook rather than push, at least that how it seems to me. The fitter I have contacted is a PPGS-certified guy named Charlie Sampson in Venice, FL. We have not made an actual appointment yet, but have been in touch. My wife and I are planning to spend February in Naples, and Charlie was the closest PPGS guy I could locate. I have been working with Don's approach for nearly three years and don't want to change what makes sense to me and is relatively pain-free. And there is no point going to a fitter who does not understand the PPGS swing. I'm hoping Charlie or some other PPGS fitter can adjust my present clubs. I'd love to have a set custom built, but cost is probably too much of an issue. Thanks again for your interest and advice.

Randy

Robert Fleck's picture

Submitted by Robert Fleck on

Randy, the first and most important thing about the lie angle of a club is that the static angle at address is completely irrelevant. You need to use a lie board, and/or put a vertical line on the backs of a bunch of balls with a marker and hit them and see how that line transfers to your club. The only lie angle that matters is dynamic--how much the club head droops during the course of the swing. Depending on how you swing a club and the specifics of the shaft you're using, the amount of toe droop will vary. But how the club looks at address is unimportant.

rfreisi@mtu.edu's picture

Submitted by rfreisi@mtu.edu on

Thanks once again, Robert. I thought that was one possibility, but I admit to knowing very little about club fitting. You know stuff I wish I did. Anyway, a fitting is in order so I'll see what can be worked out. Thanks for your time and help. Keep hitting them straight.

Randy

ret7191's picture

Submitted by ret7191 on

Randy,
Charlie is a good man to work with for both fittings and the PPGS. He fixed me up with a 7W and 9W, built me a putter, cut down my shaft on an OEM driver, and gave me a refresher on the swing. He spilts his time in VA in the summer and winters down in Venice. He is very easy to talk with and will work with you to fix what you have or will make recommendations that suits you.

rfreisi@mtu.edu's picture

Submitted by rfreisi@mtu.edu on

Thanks for the positive feedback. I made contact with him over a week ago, he replied right away, and I did so in return. Have not heard anything since but will follow up again soon. I appreciate the endorsement. I have no doubt that he can help me. I can use help with both swing and fitting.

Randy

MikefromKy's picture

Submitted by MikefromKy on

Has anyone seen my swing ?

Played maybe five times this year. Just getting healthy from all my medical issues this year. Have not been posting most of the year good to see some of the old timers still here. Getting ready to start from scratch and be ready to roll next season.

Russty Kiwi's picture

Submitted by Russty Kiwi on

Good to see you getting back into golf Mike. Yes if you get well prepared in the off season, you will start next season a lean, mean, golfing machine. Good luck.

TinaB's picture

Submitted by TinaB on

HI Randy,
Grab your camera (with video) and a mirror and spend your nasty winter practicing fundamentals, and you'll be as good as possible to go in the spring. I think it was Mike Bartholomew who had a daily that he basically taugt himself the PPGS swing that way one winter.
Tina B (formerly in MI, now if sunny Florida :) Good luck!