Tee It Forward

I don't think there is any question, that this is a great idea, and one that all golf clubs should adhere to. We have 6 sets of tees at my club( championship, member, senior, hybrid of championship and member, hybrid of member and senior, and a forward tee position), and one group I play with has a large variety of player ability, so I have tried to urge the organizers of this group to follow this idea. They have allowed some players to move up because of age, but have not followed the guidelines based on driving distance, which I think is a better perameter than age. Just because a guy is old, doesn't mean he can't swing the club, and hit it as far as some of the "younger" guys. Sandbagging is a fine art, and can be used in many ways, so I have spoken my piece to the organizers, and hopefully they will take my advice, so everyone can enjoy their round, and not just our older players. Equality in golf is a key to level competition, and I believe the USGA is on the right track for alot of reasons.

Thanks, Robert.  In my younger days, I was a multi-sport person - golf, cricket, tennis, badminton and soccer.  As I got older, I had to give up playing the rigorous sports.  I am fortunate that I learned to play golf earlier so I can continue engaging in some sport activity in my senior years.  Whenever I play with guys in their 80's, I am inspired to persevere playing and enjoying the game, no matter how far I can hit the ball.  Splitting the fairways is a lot of fun, searching for balls in the bushes is not. 

I also enjoy passing on my knowledge to help others, especially young kids, to improve their game.  That's why I got my certification as a golf instructor when I retired so I can pass on proper advice.  I taught my kids and they are keen golfers.  My son sometimes outdrives me by 100 yards and I enjoy it just as much as he does.

In my opinion, golf is the best sport - it is played outdoors in beautiful natural environment, requires physical and mental activity, honesty, respect for self, other players, officials, rules and course, non-violent behaviour and you can play alone or with others and enjoy pleasant social relationships.  That's why I plan to play and enjoy the game as long as I can.

A good friend of mine tees off with a four iron on the par 4's and 5's.   I'm trying to get him to hit my 4 or 3 hybrid which I know he will smash it but he won't have a bar of it.   The big headed driver war between manufacturers where playability especially for mid to high handicappers went out the window so much so that for him, even a 3 or 5 wood is not even a consideration.   BTW he goes pretty well nonetheless, regards Craig

P.S. I don't get the major manufacturers because if they study the stats of the golfing public then most of their customer base can't break 90.   The big headed long shafted drivers are not designed for to be usable for the majority of people who pay their wages?!

Surge--I couldn't agree more with your comments on moving it forward. However, I think your use of terms to designate the different tees reflect a lot of the reason there is resistance for some people to move it up. :You use the terms , pro tees, ladies tees, member tees, senior tees etc. Being older than you, I am fully aware of the use of these terms. But, I would bet there is a lot of resistance from a certain segment of the playing population (mine) players over 70, to using the "ladies" tee. We all know some women who can use the "members" tees. We also know some men who can't. The proper tee has nothing to do with age or sex.

What I am trying to get at is that I think the campaign to move it up would do well to "rename" the tees and retrain the thought leaders, PGA pros and USGA organiztions around the country to use the new terms, and get rid of the stereotype names that are probably causing certain people to avoid moving.

I, too, love that course. I just don't get many chances to get down there. I've played it 4 times in the last 10 years.

Very true. I had just played in a club tournament with a couple guys who were really struggling. The wind was blowing at 25-30 mph. They were using driver into the wind on most of the long  par 3s. I just think a tough short par 3 is more fun than a long one. I did get to play #7 once. No wind that day and still scary.

I'm 65, been playing for 5 years.  I inherited an old set of Ping Eye 2s from father in law.  Had a 2 iron.  Very cool.  I can hit it almost as far as a driver.  So, now I play with just irons.  A tad shorter, but I can still reach the par 4s in 2 and the par 5s in 3.  So who cares.  I score for grins, not care.  Where am I going to go with it?  Took me about a year to figure that out, I'd get mad, etc.  Once I figured out that I was not threat to the PGA I decided that it is nothing but a game and to have fun with it.

Calling the forward tees "ladies tees" discourages their use by players who should be using them.

As far as the tees, I have generally played from the middle tees for a couple of years now.
The muni that Robert F. and I play is an exception because it is fairly short on most holes even from the furthest back tees. I agree that It is dumb when you see some amatures who can barely hit their drive past the most forward tee, teeing it up on the back tees. There are many courses in Las Vegas that are "target courses" that on some holes you must hit your drives at least 180 in the air to get past the dirt (desert) or a canyon. Unless I have a steak going where I'm hitting the ball longer than average (average for me that is), I will tee off from a middle tee. If there is one or more in the group I don't let my ego force me to feel pressured into going off the back tees. I have no one to challenge and impress but myself. It is much funner for me to have less than 185 coming into a green for regulation than still having to pure a wood from 225.
So I'm all for the teeing forward to an appropriate tee.

Having said all that I hit a rare 270 yard drive the other day and hope that becomes a more common occurance in my game. Just cut and regripped  my driver shaft from 441/4 to 43 inches and will take lead tape (for possiblle weight adjustments) and impact tape to the range and mess with it to see if I can start hitting the sweet spot more often and average 230-240  and down the middle off the tee. We'll see.

Thanks Robert

If you don't insist on thinking of them as "ladies" tees, many of the resort courses around Myrtle Beach have tees set at approximately 5000 yards. They are usually red tees. No skirt is required to play them.
Playing forward can be a devil's bargain at times, too. It brings hazards (like fairway bunkers) into play which may be unreachable from the back tees. You can hit through some doglegs, so the driver may not be an automatic choice for all tee shots.

Exactly. Also, many course designers set up the size and hazard situation around a green based on what club they expected players to hit into it with an average drive. Even assuming you could reach a hypothetical long par 4 in two, if you're hitting a 5 wood instead of a 5 iron, there's likely little chance you'll hold the green.

Steve, some of my fondest as well. RTR!

Johnny Bulla told me that in the Crosby tournament back in the early 50s he had to hit a full 3 iron to get the ball to the green.

B3bush points out how much more a challenge it is to play a hard fast course where you actually need to understand how to play the ground. Before the times of over seeding the fairways in the desert to attract resort play there were six months of perfect bermuda fairways that let the player use the ground. Now during the transition the bermuda is dead and the heavy watering starts. That results in having mud balls even in the late afternoon, :( Also the fairways usually are in good condition for a month to six weeks before they are torn up and over seeded resulting in another long spell of wet muddy fairways.

The club doesn't actually impact the ball from in to out. It travels from the toe line to the target line, then along the target line through impact and a little after, then back to the toe line and up. That way it is "on-on-on" through impact. It's often helpful, though, to think about trying to deliver the club into the ball at around 4 o'clock (imagining a clock face under the ball where you're at 6 and the target is at 9) to overcome a tendency to get the club outside the line prior to impact.

For the second, remember that the face of the club should match the palm of your back hand, and your palms should be perpendicular to the ground throughout the swing. At the top, your right palm would be facing the aiming line, and so should the club face.

Neil,

Consider me a vote for you. I played today and hit some 280+ drives and some only 220. I think too many here give in to age to quickly and I am 67. A guy in our foursome was just retired at age 74. He clearly had a lot of physical capacity left but was leaving lots of weight on his back foot so he kept hitting fat shots. My fun today was hitting irons onto the green from 210 to 145 yards out. Giving in to age ruins golf to me. I like the challenge like you do. There is a place in my back when it loosens up I can freely turn and play like I use to ten or twenty years ago. I use a 46" stiff shaft and I tried shorter 43 inch ones but this one with an R11 head is 20 yards of why I still have some length. Was in the woods 5 times or would have posted a decent score. Very narrow course.

Dale,

there are MANY small towns in the US & Canda that have 9 hole tracks where u can find short courses.

Robert
I agree with the color tee markers around here that is what they are refered to not ladies or seniors. I think a little common sense has to come in play when chosing the distances we play I am a 9 handicap and will not play from the tips at some courses that are out past 6500 unless mandated by a tournament that I may be playing. My buddies and I usually play between 5800 and 6100 yards in our friendly rounds.

The list of either etiqeette or just logical decisions needed on the golf course is long and yes it is said that it is not a mandatory "course" people should take and pass before being allowed on the course. In most cases I think it is just ignorance, "forgive them for they do not know." One of my pet peves would be around the green. Golfers park their carts in front of or short of pin high( I understand their careless logic is that their ball is short of the green BUT), often in a way they have to walk in front of the green and at some distance before they can get the !!!@##!! out of the way and move to the next tee, for us to hit into the green. Another is more logical and speeds up play. Always take all the clubs you may need, ie., your wedge and putter with you so a trip isn't waisted and leave your wedge with the flag and in between the hole and your cart/bag. This speeds up play and you'll never leave a club behind. I make sure I leave my wedge(or what ever club I used around the green between me and the cart and also on the green(out of everyones line) but in plan site.Leave it in the nearby in the rough or even fringe and again you may leave it behind. I can't help but share these basics with some of the golfers I play with(even if they're strangers), at the risk of offending them. Hey, not everyone had a Dad golfer or someone to mentor basic golf play logic.
The "First Tee" program for  kids is such a program. Can we get adults in such classes? We should.

The dreaded Play it Forward program which I agree with to a point.

We had a tournament a couple of months ago the course had all 60 of us play the white tees 5500 yards we have usaully 5-6 flights / handicap groups 3 play from 6300 + the rest play from 5800 - 6300 ladies play the forward tees and usually we play with in 41/2 hrs. There excuse for having us all play whites was for faster pace of play. We all turned in 6 hr rounds because we all were waiting on every shot on every hole the whole golf course was backed up LOL needless to say they appoligized for their mistake after being told that if that was going to be the policy for our tournaments we would not be back next year.

If they want to get more people playing they need to start building courses that are in the $40.00 and less green fee range and cut the rough to 2"instead of 3-4" and instead of these 60.00 - 150.00 aroud courses all the high price cousres around here are going belly up and they wonder why. You should play the proper tees for your game and if your a beginner and cant find a shorter course make your tee times a little later on weekends instead of during prime hours 6:00 am - 9:30 am.

PMG VERTICALLY !

Roger

Have you ever watched the Wendy's triple tour tournaments. The PGA Men, Senior Men, and LPGA Ladies all hit from different Tee's. The reason is, their driving distance variations. The Tee's are set in an effort to have them all be able to play a similar distance and club into the green for their second shots.

Yeah, Robert, but that's about as much fun as walking into the Library of Congress and asking where the Sudoku section is!  :)

LMAO

It is indeed a game to have fun with. As for your driver, though, perhaps what you need is one that's properly fitted for you so that you can hit it as far and as accurately as you're capable of hitting it. The right clubs really do make a big difference. Though, admittedly, the only wood currently in my bag is my custom fit driver from Doc Griffin. The other 12 non-putter clubs are all irons and wedges, from 1 iron down.

A rose by any other name!

The Robert Trent Jones Golf Trail in Alabama does not have Ladies, Senior, Men tees. On their courses, all the tees are rated by handicap. Most, if not all, of them have a sign near the first tee identifying which color tee boxes are appropriate for which handicap range. They have had this for years, before "Play it forward." I think this is a great start to overcoming the objection to men playing the "Ladies Tee."

90% of golfers, like 90% of the general public are easily lead along by an advertising slogan, no matter how much it differs from their experience. This is especially true when you've just paid several hundred dollars for something. You really don't want to feel like an idiot.

Haha, well my problem has always been my putting. so in my early years (remember i'm 18, so early years would be around 10.  But i've only started taking it seriously this summer) I used to tee off and miss the green, then pitch and MAYBE get on the green (or fluff it)  then god knows how many putts i may have made, sometimes 2, sometimes 5. Depending on the day.

I agree with what you say about not keeping score, its just another distraction for high handicap players. I rarely keep score because either i cant keep up with my father for the life of me, or my friend cant keep up with me (my 2 most regular playing partners)

I like to enjoy the challenge and msytery of my next shot.

Next summer is my summer baby!

Callum

Kevin, my old Wilson X95 5 wood was my favorite club in my previous golfing life, I got it from the old man when he up-graded his set of woods back in '79 and played it until finally beat the windings off the hosel. I could hit it 230 yds with the wind and 215 into a nice breeze and it seemed to drop softly either way. It was about the only club I could count on in my set. I told Doc this when we were discussing my bag make-up and he built me a #3 hybrid to go along with my driver & 3 metal. There's only 1 degree of loft difference between the 5 metal & the hybrid and just a couple of more in the lie and it plays better out of the rough so Doc did me up good. First iron in my bag now is a 4. I love playing the hybrid now as much as the old faithful 5 wood.

I never kept score until I was making more consistent hits and was scoring below 100, and at this level I was picking and playing when I hit in the rough or lost a ball.
 It is madness to keep score when at this level isn't it? Or is this disrespecting those that do as would assume some never consistently break 100? 
 
Most I see play off the middle yellow tees, children and woman off the red, and better players or pros off the whites.
 
Had a good round today and scored 88 and the driver was good, played like a pro on the first 5 holes! birdie-par-birdie-bogie-par and this was straight from the first tee with 20 really good shot on the bounce, it felt easy and the swing felt easy too!
 
Hole three 300 yards I hit a great drive and hit the green! But yes 100 yards of this is down hill but it was great to walk down the fairway then it is all down hill and there is was 20 ft to the left of the pin. 
I had a dodgy spell where a couple of triple and double bogies came in to play but I managed to play through it and hit a great score for me.
 
Very happy to get back on track as the last couple of outings where terrible and not enjoyable at all.

Etiquette on a course I believe is very important and I have already taught my 8 year old boy already, but some members need to chill out a bit and make their golf club more appealing to the younger generation.
My golf club is quite a relaxed place and I am fortunate enough to be able to take my two children with a warm welcome if I choose on a nice evening , off peak yes. I know a lot of courses where this wouldn't be possible and some old buggers would be turning their noses. I think golf is on the up with help from the young pro's we see a lot of like Ricky Fowler and Rory McClroy but the clubs do need to open themselves up to make it more appealing instead of being seen as elitist.
I think this is mainly at golf club level and not the pro's we see on tour which seem like a normal bunch of folk.
Cheers Keith    

I have noticed that several courses I play on ocassion have renamed their tees.
Los Praodos calls them back,middle and forward and Aliente calls theirs by literal names - Eagle,Falcon, Hawk and Dove.

I think we all hope that you can continue to play and enjoy the game for at least another 20 years.

Our Muni is 6300 from the Blue tees down to 5200 from the Red and right at 6000 from the Whites, yeah. A pretty average length for an old course, but short compared to many of the tracks around here. Of course, Vegas is 2000 feet above sea level, so the ball carries a little further, and there's usually lots of roll. :)

I've been hacking at golf for several years.  Until it watched Surge's swing I never really understood the golf swing.  A few years ago, before Surge, I started playing golf with a business associate, now a good friend, who is a very good golfer.  I noticed he rarely kept score.  One day I asked why, and he said the game was far more enjoyable without keeping score.  As I said he is a very good player.  He encouraged me to try it.  You know, even without using the Surge swing my game actually improved and I began to have more fun and relaxing.  His point was that he played enough golf that he knew when he was have a good or bad day on the course.  He didn't need a score card to tell him.  Now, I only keep score if I have been practicing a lot at the range and I just want to see specifically how much I have improved.  Then, I go back to not keeping score.  Try it.  You'll like it.

As does the better public courses around Birmingham, Kevin, they call & post them regarding the tee color and with the same signage at least at the pro shop and most starters inquire as to your handicap to help you select the appropriate color tee.

I agree with changing the classifications especially those that can be seen as "politically incorrect" such as "associates" or "seniors" tees.   For me something like the following could be appropriate tee classifications:

Blue - Championship
White - A grade (say 12 and down)
Red - B grade (13 to 18)
Gold - C grade (19+), social clubs, beginners and also maybe younger juniors

I play with a few social clubs and I love hitting off the forward tees, its great having the challenge of nailing a short iron approach shot in close for a birdie putt or getting a long fairway shot onto a par 5 green for an eagle putt.

Its also a great challenge that when I play regular comp off the members tees that I try to take my social club handicap expectation with me.   One social club has me on a 3 hcp and another on 5, my AGU (Australian Golf Union) hcp is 12 which I maintain mostly at my home course when I go home to visit my folks.   I reside in Sydney for work purposes and hence play mostly social club golf.   At home I can regularly shoot 7 or 8 over so I know if I played more golf that is AGU sanctioned (PMG - AGU) I can break my hcp down into single digits.   Regards, Craig

A jillian years of tradition has resulted in a problem. What's wrong with changing it if it leads to more enjoyment? I don't care if the tees are called black, blue, white, red or any other system, but calling them pro, member, senior, women, and junior is probably the worst system inaginable for effectng the change Surge and others are advocating.

Very funny "Ladies Tee" video.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Thanks Surge, IM learning that for sure.   IM 5'3" and small bone.  Last year had my driver cut down and it works well, now I want my three and seven wood cut down.  Just guessing and I know guessing, about how long should my driver, three and seven wood should be.   I hit my irons fine.  Just playing five years, I think I have learn I can only play my best for my age, im not 40 or 50 anymore.   My problem as always I do everything 150%.   

Thanks so much, I will stay in the toe line today and as always see what will happen.

marilyn

Highland Park Golf Course - Birmingham, AL - Red Tees - 4793
Chesley Oaks Golf Course - Fairview, AL - Red Tees - 4981
Becky Pierce Municipal Golf Course - Huntsville, AL - Red Tees - 4782
Stoney Mountain Golf Course - Guntersville, AL - Red Tees - 4711

Those are just the courses I play regularly and have scorecards handy for. I'm quite sure I can find many more around the country with the forward tees measuring less than 5000 yards. Just have to look for them. Some others I play are just over 5000, like Valley Landing in Courtland, AL, at 5100 yards and RTJ Golf Trail - Hampton Cove, AL, at 5278 yards. They are all far short of 7000, if one sets the ego aside.