Bad Indian or Bad Arrow?

Mon, 07/29/2013 - 14:00 -- Don Trahan

Do you make solid contact with all of your golf clubs except your driver? Is it the one club that you just can't seem to hit? If you answered yes, you're just like Allen Hill. Struggling with one club usually means it's the arrow, not the indian.

Don,

My name is Allen Hill and I'm from Saint Peters Missouri. Loved your last video on wrist cock and rotation. I've been using your swing for a couple years now and love that it's changed my golf game for the better. But, the one thing I continue to struggle with is my driver and just feel like a zombie when I'm holding it and never can get the right feeling when I'm swinging it. I have no distance with it and all over the place. Do you have any instructions that will help me with my driver, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for what you do for so many golfers all around the world.

What I mean is that you shouldn't have one club that works better than another. If that's the case, the club that's not working for you needs adjusted by a professional club fitter or replaced all together. I have heard a lot of students say they don't want to hit a certain club because they never hit it solid. But, there's 14 clubs in your bag for a reason. If you never use a club, it's just wasting a spot and collecting dust.

Get to a PPGS certified fitter near you in case you find yourself shying away from a club in your bag. Once you've spent some time with one of our fitters, you'll realize the advantages of having a full arsenal of clubs.

Click here to contact a PPGS club fitter today.

Keep it vertical!

The Surge

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Comments

Jerry Gaughan's picture

Submitted by Jerry Gaughan on

Allen:
I know what your going though - if you seen my posts after the last daily I have the same issue. I am going to do the long distace fitting with Doc and have a driver built. Had an OK weekend - did hit a few good drives on both days but still not as consist as I would like.
Good luck and hitem well friend.
Jerry - Warren,MI

reedclfd's picture

Submitted by reedclfd on

Allen: Just wanted you to know that the long distance fitting with Doc is an outstanding way to get the correct clubs built for your personal swing! I live in Utah and had Doc build me a driver a couple of years ago, followed by some irons and hybrids as I could afford them. Best investment I EVER made in my golf game!! Doc really knows what he is doing, builds an outstanding club that actually fits you, and is SUPER to work with! I highly recommend him - the long distance fitting process really works and gives you the correct tools to help you play the best game possible! Take care, R2

ThomasA's picture

Submitted by ThomasA on

Boys, get back to basics. Alignment-grip-stance-posture. If you set up with head up,shoulders back,arms hanging, then just go into the mitt and up the tree and let her fly, you will get the results you want...but the set up has to be consistent and then the strike will be centered and strong. It works with any club.
Cheers
Thomas

HappyRockGolfer's picture

Submitted by HappyRockGolfer on

I began the Surge swing in 12/2010. I've had great luck with the irons and especially my 6 wood. I had just purchased a new big headed driver in September of that year. I eventually measured my arms per docs guidelines and marked the driver grip at 34", I gained better control choaking up to that length, but still not as comfortable as the other clubs. So, I cut an old (smaller head) driver to the length of my 6 wood and tried to re-weight it per some web site. That failed. Two months ago, I took my six wood and that chopped driver into the local Dick's and asked the club fitter if he could find a shaft similar to the one in my 6 wood and put it in the driver and cut to 34". WOW! He did a great job--or got lucky. I now hit my driver with as much confidence as any club in my bag and my scores are going in the right direction. So, I can only say a big AMEN to what Don's saying--probably the arrow!!

Terry Medley's picture

Submitted by Terry Medley on

Happrrockgolfer: I am glad to hear of your successful Driver quest. Please clarify though, Is it actually cut to 34" or did you mean to print 43", 34" would be very short for a driver, the avg length of wedges are 36".

HappyRockGolfer's picture

Submitted by HappyRockGolfer on

Yes! I transposed the digits. Meant 43".

p_t's picture

Submitted by p_t on

Don...the correct analogy of your post...is the clubs would be bad 'bow' and the arrows would be the golf balls... correct / ? /

Robert Fleck's picture

Submitted by Robert Fleck on

Don's use of the old chestnut is just fine, I think. The saying is "Is it the arrow or the indian," meaning is it the tool or the operator. In this case, the tool is the club. As with any metaphor, if you try to examine it too closely, it'll break, so I suggest you just go with it. ;-)

Russty Kiwi's picture

Submitted by Russty Kiwi on

I know you can break a promise, but I never knew you could break a metaphor. Yes it's better to let Surge do it his way ; )

kenerika@sbcglobal.net's picture

Submitted by kenerika@sbcglo... on

Surge - I have a slightly different problem. I hit my driver very straight but short. I hit all clubs fairly straight. I had my swing speed checked and it was around 75. I hit the driver about 180 yds. Is that what I should expect from that swing speed? I am 74, 182 pounds, 6 ft tall.
Thanks
Ken Silva

boogmc's picture

Submitted by boogmc on

Ken,
At your suggested swing speed of 75mph and using the estimated formula of
Swing Speed x 2.5 your pretty much in the ballpark at 180 yards or so. Of course. That's the formula of guessimation that folks use to use. If it's not correct, I'm sure one of the other regulars will correct me. Happy golf!

Robert Fleck's picture

Submitted by Robert Fleck on

I was just coming on to post the same thing. As far as I know, it's still a good generalization. You might get a few more yards with a softer golf ball, if you're using one of the firmer ones now. Otherwise, with a 75 MPH swing speed, 180-190 is about what you should expect.

reedclfd's picture

Submitted by reedclfd on

Ken: R2 here. I am in 100% agreement with the other regulars who answered your post. I am 69 and have a swing speed of 72-75mph. Using a Bridgestone e5, I have hit many hundreds of shots with my Doc Griffin-built driver the past two+ years, and according to my Garmin, my average drive is 182 yards. During the winters here in Utah, I change to the Wilson Staff 50 Elite, and still average that same distance. You may pick up a little more distance by trying other balls, but you are right there where you should be for your swing speed. Take care and hit 'em straight! R2

kenerika@sbcglobal.net's picture

Submitted by kenerika@sbcglo... on

Thanks for the comment. I was sort of expecting that. I had not heard of the 2.5 to one ratio. Thanks again.
Ken

NeilofOZ's picture

Submitted by NeilofOZ on

Iv'e had two drivers built to spec and still can't come to grips with either of them. The last was from Doc, but I'm going to get him to check it out when he comes down under at the end of this year, as I'm sure it's a problem with the "INDIAN". My re-shafted 3W is magnificent, fires bullets to 200M+ off the tee and fairways, so as far am I concerned I don't need a driver. I subscribe to a particular "theory" that my other woods ( 9,7&5 ) have all the same head and shaft, so in theory the next club I use is very similar to the previous one until I get down to my wedges. Can any other Surgite relate to
my situation.

Russty Kiwi's picture

Submitted by Russty Kiwi on

I took my driver out of the bag 6 months ago, & was playing my best golf ever over the summer, with sub 40s for 9 holes,& best of 82 for 18 holes. A 3 wood off the tee & a 5w or 3 hyb off the fairway. I promised myself I would not buy another driver unless it was fitted. I broke that promise & got a 2nd hand 355cc KZG for $40, & wacked an inch off the shaft. I,m looking for some lead tape to have a play with it, & this moon boot I'm wearing makes it hard to hit the ball well. I will have to wait until the boot comes off before I can experiment any further. The things we do when we have too much time on our hands aye.

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade on

"It takes to to tango" is the old dance saying. In other words it can be both the Indian and the arrow. There are two things that come into play that I think especially affect the driver results. One is that no matter how much many of us play and practice, we over swing with the driver. That is we struggle to maintain the 3/4 swing. The reason is simple. we want to hit it farther. I have learned through this mistake and through success that 9 times out of ten I hit it both straighter and longer when i just keep it 3/4's and get back with a centered strike. No wrist cock and 3'4's. I still swing with plenty of zip. At 56 years old and a good measure of arthritis and bursitis in my shoulders and neck I still have between a 96-101 swing speed (averaging 98). The charts say that should give me about 230 yards or so but I often get 250 or more with our dry air and hard fairways and roll out. When I swing out of my shoes I get crooked and also miss the center of the club face. And in harmony with Surges test done several years ago I don't improve club head speed with a bigger swing. Point is, many of us would do well to tone it down and be happy with enough distance and down the middle. BTW as others have posted, 180 yards from 75 mph club head speed is about right. Just make sure you hit off the appropriate tees.
The second part of the challenge is having the right driver and shaft. I have recently proved to myself that the shaft indeed makes all the difference. Not only that it is the correct length but that it has the right dynamics. As Surge said, you really can't go by what is stated on the shaft for flex. There are no consistent standards from one make to another. I had an unusual fitting for my driver 3 years ago in that he (my PPGS fitter) gave me the ability to choose from two lofts and 7 shafts. My driver set up cost about $450.00 of my total fitting cost (I had all clubs fit and built from driver through wedges).
7 shafts? Yes I got the Nickent Evolver-inter changeable 9* and 10.5 degree heads ranging from senior flex to xstiff. Long story short, that gave me 14 drivers to try out. So 14 drivers for $450.00 was actually a steal. After about 6 months I found that the Adila XS DVS was the best for me of the 7. Two months ago I bought that same shaft and rebuilt a Burner Taylor Made driver that had been given to me as a Christmas gift. It is now in my bag and last week I hit 11 out of 14 fairways averaging around 250 yards. My point is that the shaft does make a big difference in my opinion.
As my swing speed slows down I am sure I will switch to one of my other options.
Now few of you will have the choices I do but if you get fit by Doc or another good fitter at least you will have the best chance of getting the right driver for you. That along with a PPGS swing should do the trick.

After looking at the photos you may find he product reveiw comments interesting, especially concerning the interchanging shaft aspect.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NICKENT-4DX-EVOLVER-9-DEGREE-DRIVER-0-4mm-TITANIUM-CROWN-RH-STIFF-SHAFT-EXC-/251309858254?pt=Gol...

raygawlak@cox.net's picture

Submitted by raygawlak@cox.net on

Hi Surgites--I'm directing this question to Doc or others who might provide information: Would a 78-82 mph swing speed call for a "senior" shaft or would a "regular" suffice? Since there doesn't seem to be any standardization regarding flex perhaps someone out there in Surgeville might have some direct experience with this subject.

Thanks and regards to all,
Ray

Robert Fleck's picture

Submitted by Robert Fleck on

Hopefully Doc will come along and give you a real answer, but I believe from past Doctor's Housecalls, the answer is that it depends on the specifics of your swing beyond just the swing speed, and the specifics of the shaft you're talking about. You may be fine with a "regular" shaft with a low kick point to get the ball in the air, etc. There's more involved in getting the right launch angle and ball flight out of a club than just the flex rating marked on it (which may mean completely different things from one manufacturer than from another, anyway).

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade on

Ray,

I am not a fitter. I have been fitted by a PPGS fitter and since that time I have made club building at home a hobbie. One of the best investments I ever made was buying several books on fitting and what considerations go into club fitting. The easiest to understand for a great over view is "The Search for the Perfect Golf Club". The other one is "The Search for the Perfect Driver". Both are by Tom Wishon. They were written with the average person in mind and you don't need to be an experienced fitter to understand. One thing that becomes abundantly clear is one, as you said there is no standard. Secondly, there are a lot of other factors anyhow aside from so called flex. So for example all 'S' or 'R' flexes are not created equal with some having a stiffer tip or softer tip and likewise firmer or softer at the grip end (or not). Then there is weight and total weight including the head. How can any one even pretend to guess what 'flex' you need based only on swing speed. Do you swing hard from the top, gradual from the top. Are you a sweeper or do you swing down even with your driver as most do? There so many variables that would make it impossible to tell you what's best? The 'direct experience' is either doing a long distance fitting with Doc at which time he could help you select a driver and fit or at an actual PPGS fitting. Otherwise it is guess work.

To understand all the variables involved go to Doc's web site and read/fill out one of his on line forms for fitting.

http://www.thegolfstop.net/Products.html

Read and watch the considerations for any fitting

http://www.thegolfstop.net/Blank.html

http://www.thegolfstop.net/Blank.html

Ray, I know this was not a simple answer. Sorry about that. If all this seems like just too much trouble for you, you can do as most do and simply go to a store like Golf Galaxy and try several new or used drivers in multiple flexes and profiles to see what seems to work on their monitors. The odds of you ending up with another driver that may or may not work for you are ify. Or you may get lucky.

edge's picture

Submitted by edge on

After getting some lessons a while ago as a present the instructor told me to not focus on 'online golf vids/systems like this because it would make me too step. So I went to a more rotational swing style. Which seemed more difficult for me. Plus I still had issues with slicing. So I am back wth the PPGS and studying the vids and manual again I purchased some months ago.

In my case I slice not only with driver but many of the longer clubs and occasional mid iron as well as fat shots. I think this was from initiating FUS with shoulders and unwinding causing a OTT and face open to that path. This happens when I choke down as well, so me thinks its the INDIAN (me)!!

I did a search for flight laws eg: D Plane, couldnt find a vid on this site. Is Surge a proponent that the club face angle accounts for most of the initial ball flight. Thus a OTT swing can cause a straight slice as opposed to older theories stating OTT will have the ball starting left than slicing to right.

Sorry, I got a bit off track just trying to work on the slice by ringing the bell and bumping (feeling like I pull down on club, whcih causes me to bump at same time). Great to be back working (hope to see Surge downunder sometime).

Cheers to all at Surgites.

NeilofOZ's picture

Submitted by NeilofOZ on

EoW, My spies tell me that Surge and his team are trying to make it down under at the end of the year, fingers crossed.

Regarding the "club face" its angle will have a dramatic effect on the balls direction, but as I see it you can have an "open club face" coming from "over the top" or "inside the line". My theory would be to fix the club path first, ie inside the line then work on club face after as this would mainly be affected by timing and position at release. The "over the top" path would be the real killer.

edge's picture

Submitted by edge on

Thanks for the reply Neil. I hope they can get down here. Def would take some time off work to attend a clinic or two!!!

Robert Fleck's picture

Submitted by Robert Fleck on

I was watching the US Junior Am finish when that happened, Steve. As much as I'm sure the loss hurt, that young man should be more proud of doing what's right. Great thing to see in a world so full of people whose only concern is for what they can get out of a situation.